Podcast Episode #551
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Almost every pastor has had to deal with being fired—often for little to no reason. Today, we discuss a recent post on the topic and explain it further.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- Too many pastors are fired without being told why.
- Often, pastors who are forced out for little to no reason look back on the situation and wish they had fought it a bit more.
- Sometimes the way a pastor is treated can affect their spouse and kids and turn them away from the church.
- The corporate world is often more gracious with severance than the church world.
The 10 responses that we discuss are:
- “I didn’t see it coming.”
- “No one gave me a reason for my firing.”
- “No one asked for my perspective.”
- “A power group pushed me out.”
- “A staff member (or members) pushed me out.”
- “My family is devastated.”
- “The severance was small.”
- “I can never return to pastoral ministry.”
- “I should have never followed a long-term pastor.”
- “Secular employers are kinder and show more grace.”
Resources mentioned in today’s podcast
Rainer on Leadership is a member of the LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network
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All the above is absolutely true!
I had church pastorates, in a variety of roles including that of senior pastor. I can say all of the above statements about termination are true. For the past 18 years I have taught 19-25 pastoral study majors in a university setting on the realities of pastoral ministry. The area of wrongful and deserved termination is a topic I teach on, regularly.
A great follow up post to the idea of termination by Thom Rainer would be on the topic of “resilience” . I present on the idea of resilience by offering the question, “How does one come back after termination? The bottom line fact about termination is that whether termination is legitimate, forced or even planned retirement, it is painful. My wife of nearly 40 years has quipped, “What would you have to say to your students if it was not for some of the things we have been through?” Truer words have never been spoken. Any time I could be of service to Thom Rainer and his team of leadership practitioners to help in any way, I am ready! Thank you for all you do.
Great comments, Bill. Thank you.
Currently in the process of being fired for I subordination because I cant seem to turn a blind eye as the board would like to the treasurer misappropriating restricted funds from Sunday school, memorial fund and failing to pay me for months at a time. Seems about right.
Sorry, meant to type ‘insubordination’
15 months into my first church in 1989 I was told to leave. The reason, I ministered to African-Americans and Hispanics. This was in what was then rural NC 45 miles east of the state capital. My wife worked for the local police dept. and found out that one of my deacons was active in the KKK. sadly a lot of prejudice still exists in many of our SBC churches. I am now serving in my 6th church in eastern/northeastern NC.
Yes, remember that day well, October 28, 2018. Completely blindsided after 11 yrs. 8 mos. The Lord graciously provided a house four us to rent. (Parsonage for 35 years of ministry.) A job, less pay but adequate. Been trying to figure out, what’s next. Miss a lot of things about ministry now. Still praying about what’s next.
I just prayed for you, Steve.
Severance? What is that?
I paused and prayed for pastors who are currently in this situation. Having counseled with many pastors I suggest these things:
1. Take time to heal
2. Find another pastor or professional counselor to walk you through the next steps
3. Remember–people treated you unfairly, not your Heavenly Father. You may be terminated by a church but not by your Father. You work in your Father’s business.
4. Ask your Father about your next assignment. He already has a place for you. after all he is your Father and wants what is best for you. He knew about this before you did.
5. Pray. Building a stronger relationship with your Father and family will bring healing.
April 17, 2018. Served the church for five years, two months. Did my best to follow the Lord’s leading and move the church to walk closer with Him. Didn’t see any need to fight the 3 deacons (leadership) who came to see me in the office that morning.
Had to beg for a three month severance; at least it was all salary and full benefits.
The Lord provided my current church through a resume put online and a church “ad” seeking a pastor. First call on April 30 by the board secretary (leader of the board when no pastor is serving). Told that he had six other contacts, but asked if I would set up a video interview with the search committee and the entire board on that Thursday night (May 3). Spent 45 minutes in the first call on April 30, and then 90 minutes in the video interview. Called right back and asked to come down May 19/20 to meet and to preach on Sunday May 20. Mailed me a check equal to two plane fares so we could drive down (FL) from KS and do some vacation time enroute. Called back with 90% affirmative vote in two more weeks after congregational vote. Church moved us down July first week. We have just celebrated our first year here (28th year in ministry). GOD IS GOOD, ALL THE TIME. ALL THE TIME, GOD IS GOOD.
P.S. Our house in KS was on the market 1 week… sold at full price with no special needs to do any fix-up. A family member of a church member bought it and we closed just after moving to FL. PTL! He is WONDERFUL!
Incredible story of God’s provisions.
Could you pass along my email to Dr. McNamara. I go to FL a lot on my new sales job. Would love to meet up if possible.
Steve., You can contact me through my church website (www.clchurchfl.com). My email is posted there. Would love to meet you
By the way, I go by “Pastor Dean” — the Dr. McNamara is way too formal.
Please get in touch when you will be In FL.
Thanks,
Pastor Dean
Excellent podcast. One word for sudden firings is always check church constitution. Deacons/Boards sometimes fire and offer severance agreements without congregational authority which is an action that will not hold up in court. Don’t immediately agree to an arrangement until you have someone with legal training check the Church constitution.
Good idea – but my husband didn’t push the issue to a congregational vote (like the constitution requires) because if they voted for him to stay, how could he work with a leadership team that did’t want him there. Hardest decision we ever made – just walk away. Through counseling and time we are healing but not sure what the future holds….
From one pastor’s wife to another: been there! Everybody loses. We fought one, walked away from another. Walking away was harder.
Yeah, that’s a tough call. On the one hand, I agree with Danny. If the church is circumventing the constitution, the fighter in me would want to stand up to them. On the other hand, those situations can get pretty nasty, and the pastor has to consider whether it’s really worth it. In my opinion, if people are already attacking the pastor’s family, he should go ahead and get out, because chances are he’s already in a no-win situation.
I put in my vote as well for leaving. The vast majority of the congregation is happy and blithely ignorant of the small group of antagonists who have met secretly, poured over the church documents, memorized Roberts Rules of Order, and have planned their strategy well. By the time you try to get all the good people up to speed on the issues, the carnage is too great, and the institutional pressures too profound. Yeah, I could have said that me and God make a majority, but truth is, in my situation, God was silent. Yeah, theologically and biblically I believe he wasn’t, but when the tangibles all around you are attacking, and you cry out for help and perceive nothing (no direction and no relief). And when you find yourself on the floor scraping through every subliminal tea leaf of spiritual direction and guidance, the one CLEAR open door of escape in resignation- shaking the dust off your feet and running! When I saw that none of the leadership was standing with me (most against, some neutral). And when the scales of my selfish eyes fell off and I saw how it was affecting my wife, the love of my life, the answer was obvious. Get out!
When both sides claim to be doing God’s will, protecting God’s truth, and fighting for the survival of the church, THAT begins to play with your mind as a pastor. “Who am I to say that I’m more concerned about God’s will then they. They claim to be Christians too.”
Sorry, not a pretty picture. But for what’s left of your spiritual and physical health, I’d say, “Leave!” The battle is not worth it!
Court? Churches cannot rely on courts. Courts do not want to interfere with church governance. Church constitutions mean nothing unless there is a church system for enforcing them. This gives clergy the upper hand in all church disputes unless they have an ombudsman system with both clergy and lay representation, which by the way might be helpful in all the discussed scenarios here.
I had hoped in seeing this topic revisited that the congregational viewpoint might be considered. There are always two (at least) sides to such dramatic stories and there is always a reason. Of course, sometimes you might have an influential member who rides on weekends with the KKK, but more often you have hard-working lay people who see trouble brewing and are trying to correct a course before great damage is done. Perhaps they tried in subtle ways but the pastor paid no attention, thinking everything was fine. Congregational leaders are probably trying to change course without hurting reputations or creating scandal. It may seem to come from nowhere, but it is likely that trouble was tiptoeing in the shadows for quite some time. Remember—clergy have voice and influence in the greater church that congregations lack. Congregations are assessed through their eyes. Their side of the story becomes THE story. When it is met with nothing but empathy for the pastor from church professionals (not a bad thing but certainly one-sided), the congregations suffer (possibly for a very long time) with no one to pray for and cry with them. There is significant danger in this.
I began my pastoral calling in 1983, and had no way of knowing the ins and outs of dealing with church bosses and power groups, let alone the deacons. Served 6 months and then found out (why) I was having trouble from fellow pastors in the area, “well they said someone should have warned you. You accepted a (pastor eating church). Served SBC churches until 2000. All and I do mean all the churches I served in Ga. and SC. had good people and good ole boys. But then there were some mean cat fighting folks who could care less about you or your family and would makes statements such as, “Preacher man I was here before you came, and I will be here after you leave.” I made it though through God’s power not mine. Retired in 2014 from the FMCNA. I have horror stories that some of you would not believe. My children do not want to ever come back to the church as they witnessed what so called Church members did to us……
Brother, I’d believe anything you tell me. I’ve been there. Served one of the ungodliest churches you’ve ever seen!
Pastor-in-Residence Ministries (www.pirministries.org) helps pastors who have been forced out. The provide a space for the pastor and family to heal. They help them rediscover ministry health and return to pastoring. PIR has an amazing success rate!
I agree with all 10.
I was forced to resign after 10+ years in a FBC. The “magnificent 7”
came to my office on Friday morning after one deacon (coward) said he, himself, wanted to talk with me. I was expecting him. He brough 6 “bullies” with him.
He brought his gang of 6 others who told me on Friday morning if I did not resign the following Sunday morning they would proceed to force me out.
I didn’t; they did.
It took them a while, but they finally got a vote on the church floor to “declare the pulpit vacant.” It didn’t work. They lost the vote. Their leader said he would comply with the church’s vote.
But, they did not lose their aggression.
The movement went from “let’s fire the pastor” to “let’s destroy the pastor” (one of the deacons who was involved later told me that was the purpose of some of their “secret” meetings).
They used the anger of a DOM and a state guy to crash our career.
What does one do when the state executive director of the state convention says, “Get a job at a service station; you will never pastor a church as large as FBC — church).
He was right; I was later told he saw to it.
I never recovered.
I got a “secular” job and was eventually hired by a small rural church.
When a pastor is fired or forced out, his success may well depend on the “presbytery” informal system Baptists have through the local DOM and the people in the Baptist building of that state.
One phone call from either of them is said to be able to make or break a pastor.
The SBC system is a cruel and heartless system for pastors who are forced out.
My college pastor said, “The world has become so churchy and the church has become so worldly, one can hardly tell the difference between them.’
It is my opinion the “control or destroy” mentality that appears to be in so many churches today is directly from the devil (Isa. 14: 13-14).
My question is: Has that spirit leaked over into some of the associational and state leaders, or even possibly in the denomination?
If so, can we ever recover from such a sickness?
Thank you, Dr. Rainer. This podcast is well done for such a brief time frame, but there is SO MUCH MORE to this. For the sole-breadwinner-pastor, with a family, who has left his “home” to live amongst his flock in the church’s parsonage, and pour his heart and soul into the saving of the lost and the spiritual growth of the saved, this experience is nothing short of devastating. My family has been there, done that, more than once! And it’s much more common than lay people realize, far more painful than getting fired from a secular job, and absolutely devastating for the pastor’s family – especially teenage PKs. I can only imagine how it must grieve God’s heart… I fear there will come a day the church bullies will stand before the Lord and answer for what they’ve done to His anointed ones. My heart aches for them. My heart aches for the pastor they’ve rejected. My heart aches for the PKs who, when they become adults, refuse to go to church because they’ve seen such evil. My heart aches for the blind-sided church members the bullies have hurt. My heart aches at the realization that many in church leadership are not saved at all…
Not that this will make anyone feel better, but the SBC isn’t the only denomination that devours it’s own. I’ve experienced this same ungodly attitude in the Church of God(Clev.).
Bullies exist in nearly every church, denomination, and state and international offices. There is no escaping them. As long as there are people, there will be those in positions of church authority that have no business being there.
The best one can do is to always be in a position spiritually to be able to handle the inevitable battles that are to come. Enjoy the peaceful times, but keep your eyes and ears open for trouble.
Had the same experience as an ME of 6 1/2 years at church, at the hands of a Senior Pastor and Deacon Vice Chair filling in for the Deacon Chair. No reason given; just, “You can shake hands and then leave with nothing, or you can sign this paper [severance agreement promising silence] and then leave with something.” I signed the paper and then did not answer the telephone or any knocks at the door–or even leave the house–for three months afterwards. One week before, had been asked at a local restaurant by a guest visiting if I was still working for the church–because a third deacon already had told him I was to be let go. All was a complete surprise. But 7 months later, initiated phone calls to the Senior Pastor and Deacon Vice Chair to discuss the matter; told each that would give a hug, shake his hand, and offer a hamburger if saw them at future ministry meetings in the state–and fully expected them to respond positively, as Christian men should. They said that they would. The church sort of dried up after that, and the Senior Pastor went to a different church. I no longer work in ministry but love the job I do–Human Resources Director, helping others with employment issues and conflict management.
This topic struck a nerve that was inflicted over 55 years ago by two so called bible believing Baptist churches. I was 15 when dad graduated from Tennessee Temple in Chattanooga. Loved Dr. Robertson but I feel Temple failed to express to young preacher boys that all churches ain’t all spiritual. Dad found out that preaching about separation and holiness was not well taken by many of the deacons. The first church in Indiana gave us 2 weeks to get out. Right after dad did the funeral for one of the deacons son (17) killed in a car wreck drunk. second church in Linton, Indiana we later found out was what is called a Pastor killer church. We just want to fill good but not be good. When dad found out the organist son who sang on Sunday was playing in the night clubs on Saturday, well the midnight meeting took place and on a Wednesday night after a hit to my dads face we had to be out by weeks ends. I have come to realize in later years that God used all of this to instill in my dad that Gods word never changes, but the approach to change people’s hearts may have to be over a longer time period. But no compromise on the integrity of God’s word or how the church should reflect His love for the lost and His redemptive power to regenerate cold hearts. At my dad funeral at age 84 and pastoring his last church for 33 years I saw the hundred’s who came to show us as children how God used a humble Kansas farmer’s son to win countless souls to the Lord, families changed, lives pulled from sin to shout they are heaven bound by God’s unchanging redemptive power. Never give up, cause God’s not done with you yet>
When our pastor first came to our church four years ago, I told him his boss is Jesus and not the Board of Officers. Sadly, many church leaders see themselves as the boss and the pastor is a hiring that should submit to their wishes. The pastor voluntarily leave this year before the renewal contract is to be submitted for congregational vote.
Had a similar experience a couple of years ago and through that, have written something that could be of great benefit to many who have dealt with this issue. Would love to hear your thoughts on it, Thom. Thanks for your time!
I have been through it twice now. Considering seriously leaving pastoral ministry forever. i know I’m called to preach, but the pain is too great. My kids are young adult and also in high school and when they get to be in their 30s, they may never go to church again (Who knows?). Too many unregenerate, bad, cranky, “sour about life,” unethical, dishonorable ppl in leadership roles in churches. I don’t want to hear about the excuses (from others) about the problems in churches. My take: There are far too many unhealthy churches in America today that “chew up and spit out” pastors. Over nothing. I never envisioned pastoral ministry to be this way: churches getting rid of men over little to nothing. I always thought I’d pastor a rural church of at least 70-80 ppl which would love Jesus, love their pastor and family, see souls saved, see a good spirit in it, want to reach out into the community, work together through conflict and problems. It hasn’t been this way at all in any way, shape, or form. Every year or two, someone does an article about the hundreds of men who leave ministry every month because of the fact they’re tired of dealing with ugly people who are “so-called Christians.” I am very close to walking away from it all, but I fear what God may bring upon me if I do so (quit preaching permanently). So I may pastor one more church (a third one, but I feel like a “pile of rubble.” Like my soul has bled. My spirit is low and God has taken care of us (getting us another house and me a job), but I’m tired of suffering spiritually. I know the NT teaches we’re to “rejoice in sufferings.” But it’s very tough. Unless one has been through it, it’s easy to offer trite, not well thought out advice and counsel. Some do offer “Suck it up” statements to burned pastors. That doesn’t help any. I’m thankful to men like Thom who approach this honestly and thoughtfully. Like I said, I’m not quite going to throw in the towel just yet, but I’m close. Too many bad churches out there (if you want to even call that that; “country clubs” might be a better description). I may pastor one more church, but if the next experience is not significantly better in a lot of ways (Doesn’t have to be a perfect church, just fairly healthy), that may do it. Which would mean: never pastoring a church again.
I understand that the experiences of these pastors are real and very harmful to them and to God’s work. However, our recent experience shows that the church leadership are not the only ones who target pastors. Our experience is quite the opposite, from a layman’s perspective.
Within a couple of months of the “pastor” coming to the church we attended, he had labeled us the “enemy in the camp”. In my view, this was as a result of our desire and need to be used for God’s kingdom – through the church. Yes, we did question and perhaps oppose some of the things that the “pastor” did, but his lack of a willingness to work with us and resolve the conflict greatly harmed the church. Our offers to work in any capacity were squelched. The “pastor’s” obvious intent and efforts to suppress and break our spirit almost worked. His insecurity and paranoia made our three years under his “leadership” a downward spiral. I am sad to say that this man’s actions have caused me to acknowledge that even pastors are not exempt from being used by Satan; and, indeed, may not be the man of God that the church needs or that he purports to be.
Fortunately, after three years, we felt God’s permission to leave and find somewhere that we could minister. That was about 8 months ago, and we are still healing spiritually. We are helping a small church whose ministry is to our university students. I pray that we can continue to be used by Him for His Glory.
The “ten” reasons seem to say that pastors are always the victims in church issues. In some cases, if the pastor were honest with themselves and the congregation, he would see that he is the one that is limiting the growth and spread of God’s word. Many pastors do not know how to handle the authority in the scriptures that they are given as church leaders and abuse the right.
There are cartels on both sides, those who bully the pastor and those led by the pastor to bully other members.
In yours, mine and others dialog it is import is important to keep in mind there are three sides to every story: your side, my side and the truth.
I was never fired, but I did walk away. I have heard many horror tales. I am glad that for most of my 40+ years of ministry I have been bi-vo because you cannot trust many congregations to be Christian and support you for much more than minimum wage. Often they want you and your wife to work in ministry for the salary not really good for one. Churches have hurt my wife’s heart because she could not play the piano, teach, lead the Ladies and some may have wanted her to finish my sermon in Greek if I dropped dead in the pulpit. Yet, she was a better wife, mother and pastoral support minister than many of the women in the congregations I have served or known. One lad made her cry and I almost crossed the table to make him join her.
I think R. G. Lee would say the number of people saved in churches today might be 2% instead of the 5% he said causing an uproar in the Convention.
I have considered doing an autobiography sharing some of the weirdness I have experienced in ministry. I have dabbled with titles. Fortunately, even though I am too old in some pulpit committee eyes, I am still doing ministry wherever I can in many capacities in church and community. I was called a Maverick by a couple of my peers and I wear it as a badge of honor and will do all I can until I am dead. Hang the torpedoes! Full speed ahead! Call me a rebel with a cause. 😉