Podcast Episode #502
SUBSCRIBE:
iTunes • RSS • Stitcher • TuneIn Radio • Google Play • iHeart Radio • Spotify
Numbers are important, but they aren’t ultimate in the church. Today, we discuss why you should be counting and how, but we also discuss how to avoid making numbers your focus.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- There is no reason to have an aversion to numbers as a church leader.
- Tracking numbers is a stewardship and accountability issue.
- You need a consistent method for counting worship attendance in your church.
- The more someone is involved in the ministries of the church, the more they will invest financially in the church.
The seven reasons that we discuss are:
- We must overcome our aversions to numbers
- Two most common areas to track: worship and groups
- Knowledge of attendance leads to better pastoral care
- Knowledge of attendance leads to better stewardship
- Those who do the counting in worship service usually provide great insights
- Attendance is a key indicator of discipleship
- Avoid the classic pitfalls of attendance counting
Resources mentioned in today’s podcast
Rainer on Leadership is a member of the LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network
Episode Sponsors
Vanderbloemen Search Group is the premier pastor search firm dedicated to helping churches and ministries build great teams. They’ve helped thousands of churches just like yours find their church staff and are uniquely geared to help you discern who God is calling to lead your church.
For more information, visit WeStaffTheChurch.com.
The ministry landscape is changing, and the need for biblical training is more necessary than ever. It’s time to get your Master of Divinity degree. The M.Div —Midwestern Seminary’s flagship degree program — is the primary track for ministry preparation. At just 81 hours, the Midwestern M.Div offers a complete foundation for full-time ministry leaders, offering everything you need, and nothing you don’t. Join other students in vibrant Kansas City as you train in a unique collaborative environment focused on the local church or study online in your current ministry context. Midwestern Seminary is developing a discipleship culture devoted to the local church and committed to God’s unchanging Word. Why not start your training today?
Find out more at mbts.edu/mdiv.
Feedback
If you have a question you would like answered on the show, fill out the form on the podcast page here at ThomRainer.com. If we use your question, you’ll receive a free copy of Scrappy Church.
No one provided better information about this topic than the late Andy Anderson of Church Growth Spiral fame–and no other method for doing so has been offered to the local church yet. I recommend Andy’s resources to everybody with an interest in this topic, its basis in church administration, and doing it well/thoroughly 🙂
I met Andy Anderson in 1975. I used his Church Growth Spiral material for a long time. It is a very easy way to keep track of all of the different components that needs to be tracked
I am in Minnesota. I viewed a service via TV from North Phoenix Baptist Church in about 1985 or so; over 30 years ago anyway. Pastor was Richard Jackson. It was on Acts Chapter 2 “Healthy Church” requirements: stewardship, fellowship, worship, discipleship, and scholarship (Ac.. More to the point, he shared the Church’s #’s: budget, total giving, new membership, Salvations, Baptisms, and Baptisms in the Holy Spirit. I was so impressed! I wrote for a copy of the annual report he was referencing, a CD of the message (I later paid to have it manually transcribed). Wow! A Church and a Pastor that actually took the achievement of their responsibilities very seriously. Impressed me for a lifetime.
…. “Baptisms in the Holy Spirit”? ….
Hi Craig, this probably isn’t the place for a cessation-ism debate? But, of course, a lot of SB Fellowships subscribe to the extensive scriptural and life experiences of the experience, subsequent to Salvation, of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, commonly refereed to as the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. But, again, Theological distinctives aren’t debated here? In fact, isn’t there so much to be done in all our backyards, that there’s not a lot of time for it right now?
That’s one of the problems with American Christianity. Doctrine is pushed into the background for the sake of unity and growth. We then see articles about people leaving the faith and wonder why. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth. Doctrine should always be at the fore front or else we are just building religious organizations.
Tommy Barnett is a pastor in the Assemblies of God denomination. They (along with most Pentecostal and charismatic groups) believe baptism in the Holy Spirit to be a separate experience from salvation and immersion baptism. Again, not to debate the topic, but given their theological views I’m not surprised that would be tracked (Lutherans likely track the number of christenings done in a church).
Theological discussions aside … you can see when a person joins a church, you can see when they get baptized, you can see when they attend a Bible study class, or participates in a ministry, but how do you tell when one has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and why would you even track such a thing?
Again, theological discussions aside, it is an important part of life in the Pentecostal and charismatic churches. Usually a person will testify that such has happened (just like someone in a Southern Baptist church will announce s/he has “rededicated” his/her life), as such it is based on an honor system.
Thom, I appreciate the different ways you offer to approach counting weekly attendance. One of my struggles is how we “compare” attendance data over the years. In 2019 even our most dedicated disciples are worshiping maybe 42-46 times a year (many are here 34-42 times a year) where in 1989 it was still closer to 50-52 times a year. I think this skews the ability to assess longitudinal trends. Thoughts on how we address that?
Eric –
Here is an article I wrote on the topic a few years ago:
https://archive.thomrainer.com/2013/08/the-number-one-reason-for-the-decline-in-church-attendance-and-five-ways-to-address-it/
Look at the ages of people now vs in 1989. Thirty years ago I was 12 and in jr high school. I could not leave town very often for a weekend. A grandmother who is 75 now was a 45 year old who likely had kids in school. Now she may go to visit the (grand) children and stay a few weeks.
That is a point well taken, especially given the average age of a church attender is often 50 or above in many cases. So they would be retired and either traveling and/or visiting children and grandchildren living outside the area.
I saw on a FB executive pastor’s group about a church that tracked attendance through their wifi. They had everyone initially sign in and give their email when they first logged in to the wifi and it kept track of when they came on campus. Has anyone else used that kind of system to track attendance?
…. sounds a little big brotherish ….
Our church has been tracking attendance primary through an attendance book and memory. Not very many people fill out our attendance book and the the raw memory of who was here is not as reliable at our size, plus new people are not well accounted for. Is it important to try to keep track of the individuals coming each Sunday? If so, what are some helpful tips? Or is it more important to keep track of the numbers? Or is there some kind of middle between the two? Thanks
You first talked about counting bodies in worship. That isn’t finding out names of who is attending, but then you talked about taking attendance helps with Pastoral Care – since if someone stops coming then you reach out and show that you care about them. But if you are only counting bodies in worship – you won’t know if someone in particular isn’t coming.
It sounds like you are recommending we find a way to track names of who is attending. We are a large church (@1300 on a Sunday), and I believe this would be a large investment, but need to know if this would have a good ROI from both timing, expense, cultural change, etc.
We already track name attendance in groups so we do have that.