Podcast Episode #428
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There are so many things you think you know until you live it. Today we talk about several things pastors and church staff won’t learn until they get on the job. And I also tell the story of my worst wedding ever.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- You can learn leadership principles in school; but you learn leadership on the job.
- Pastoral counseling in today’s culture is more difficult than in any generation before.
- Outreach in the local church requires an actual plan to do something.
- Continual learning is critical for pastoral development.
The nine items we cover on this episode are:
- General leadership training
- Conflict management
- Change leadership
- Counseling in today’s culture
- How to lead a church to growth
- Funerals and weddings
- Contemporary communication issues, particularly social media
- How to interview for a position
- How to lead a staff
Episode Sponsors
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Feedback
If you have a question you would like answered on the show, fill out the form on the podcast page here at ThomRainer.com. If we use your question, you’ll receive a free copy of Becoming a Welcoming Church.
What I wish now that I had realized then: That most of my seminary profs were very nice–but had not served on a local church’s staff for over a decade, had served more or less successfully just like I would, and that the congregations they served also struggled with biblical growth in the same ways that ones I would serve did. I probably esteemed my professors too highly.
My takes on the list above:
1. General leadership training: Leadership training is possible if a person can be taught how to offer workable solutions to actual problems (managers primarily find problems; leaders primarily find solutions; administrators primarily bring to bear on problems found by managers the solutions found by leaders). Prior work experience with what really works and what doesn’t can help; to teach leadership, put a person in a real life situation with the responsibility to make it an even better one.
2. Conflict management: Managing conflict = people leave; resolving conflict = problems leave, and can’t come back–because, in the course of learning how to resolve conflict (not merely manage it) everybody involved must grow up and now can recognize a problem for what it truly is and won’t let it back in the building (learning to resolve conflict feels very uncomfortable because it requires greater maturity of everyone; so, Baptist churches usually only manage conflicts–until enough of their members leave to find a different, more mature congregation where peace reigns).
3. Change leadership: Change = a self-sustaining new condition. If the “change” announced requires a person to sustain it over time, then it isn’t a change–it’s a fad, a trend, a synonymous term but not a change. And, actual change does indeed require leadership–and also management and administration, so that status quo (or, the price I’m willing to pay NOT to change) is overcome by their joint efforts.
4. Counseling in today’s culture: Probably not true that it is more difficult–but definitely true that more need for it exists, as so many social systems (i.e., families, communities, churches, other purposeful people-groups) today are/remain as unhealthy/dysfunctional organizationally as they are/do.
5. How to lead a church to growth: NOT by failing to use consistently a tried-n-true approach like Andy Anderson’s Growth Spiral one (the research, again: nothing else like it before its time, nothing else like it during its time, and nothing else like it since its time; LifeWay should promote its use! . . .). NOTHING has so changed about this world that that approach cannot work (to prove that statement wrong, you’ll have to try it).
6. Funerals and weddings: People will let you minister to them at the point of their greatest needs–and funerals and weddings definitely are two of those points.
7. Contemporary communication issues, particularly social media: It’s not possible to OVER-communicate, so use every method available and receptive by each learning modality in order to integrate and motivate the masses toward adaptation and goal achievement of the group.
8. How to interview for a position: Interview as an emotionally-secure adult who will be a super-great team player desiring to continue to grow in his/her vocation (in HR circles, this is “purple squirrels”: red is intrinsic motivation, and nobody can give that to you; blue is job-related academics, and I can give that to you all day long; organizations can hire for willingness and train for skills, and make purple squirrels of everyone not yet quite “purple”). For accomplishing exceptional results consistently as a team, it’s the only way.
9. How to lead a staff: In transformational–not transactional–ways. Unless you function toward me in such a way that I am caused both to like you and to trust you at the same time, then I’m going nowhere with you not required by my job description. E.g., for Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Daniel 3): Nebuchadnezzar out of the fiery furnace = transactional leadership, and he is hated; but, God in the fiery furnace = transformational leadership, and He is worshiped.
As a church consultant, I agree with all nine that you list – and that unless the pastoral candidate receives that training elsewhere, or is just naturally gifted in one of those particular areas, they can quickly get lost when the need for these skills arise. Saddest to me is the lack of leadership training, for when a pastor has that skill many of the others will more naturally fall into place.
I would add a tenth category that pastors should be taught in seminary – How to teach on and deal with Biblical Stewardship/Generosity. As a church consultant that deals in this area (one of the subjects I teach on is “Discipling Generosity”) I find that aside from the obligatory, periodic sermon series pastors are ill equipped to deal with this, and many indeed fearful of it. They fear that people will push back, quit coming to church, and indeed maybe even support the church less.
The bottom line reason for this is they teach on this subject from the perspective of what they want FROM the people, where they should focus on what they want FOR their people. I Timothy 6: 17-19 is Paul’s mandate to Timothy about “discipling” his people about Generosity – God honoring, God inspired Generosity. In the first two verses he instructs Timothy to teach on this, and then in vs. 19 he gives the WHY – “So that they may be laying up treasures, as a firm foundation for the coming age, AND . . . experience the life that is truly life.” Therein are the benefits both on this side and for all of eternity.
A focused read/study of The Sower (Hoag & Rodin) will free up most pastor readers to see this area in a new and inviting light, so they will not just be teachers of the subject, but disciplers of Biblical Generosity.
It is my belief, and I teach this, that new believers should be intentionally discipled in this area very early, for when they “get this” the rest comes more easily and naturally. C.S. Lewis (and others) said (paraphrased) “No one is a fully discipled follower of Jesus Christ unless and until they live generously as God intended.”
I am a graduate of Bible College and Seminary. Now, as a member of a pastoral search team here is what I wish they taught in Seminary; Stick with it. . .church is a family. . .the Holy Spirit is NOT on a 2-3 year cycle of pastors moving from one church to another; business management and financial management for churches; and stop just posting on social media every time you want to vent. . . those posts will come back to haunt you!
Seminary didn’t prepare me for two things; dealing with conflict and actual pastoral care.
Pastoral care was presented as visiting people and preaching good sermons.
I wasn’t prepared for getting knee-deep in people’s mess (or confronting people about their mess) and walking with them through it. I also learned quick that no matter how well you present the scripture behind the pulpit, people don’t exactly make the connection to their own lives. It takes a lot of one-on-one to help them make the connection.
Jeff, good point. As a university professor who now preaches as well, I think the reason for this is people do not know how to convert abstract information into something that applies to themselves directly. This is done by taking the time to meditate on the information and mull it over. It can’t be done any other way. So, counseling often becomes the way this is done. The question is, do people learn from that and learn to do it for themselves?
The “It takes a lot of one-on-one to help them make the connection” above: With apologies to university professors (and preachers) who may believe otherwise: Talking is not teaching, and listening is not learning (and seniority in the role is no indication of true effectiveness). Instead, teaching is teaching and learning is learning. When a person capable/trained for it has presented information (new or not) to others, he only potentially has increased the ability of those folk actually to use the info shared; until the professor/preacher/teacher follows home each individual to observe him/her in a real life setting calling for use of the info shared, then it cannot actually be known that the preacher/professor/teacher did not just talk for 30-45 minutes. Life change must be measured.
School teachers who hold earned undergrad and graduate degrees in the field of Education struggle with this daily; what would make people like professors and preachers who don’t think that they can do it as well or better?
David, so why bother teaching anything to a group? Just follow each person home and do one-on-one for everything.
The reason, as you know, is because that is inefficient. So, we teach groups. To learn in a group requires two skill sets. First, the teacher has to have a set. The other is on the student. They have to take the information given to them by the teacher and process it for themselves.
My post above was about the lack of understanding about the responsibilities, skills and requirements of a learner. Specifically, that they take time to process what they have been instructed in. Too many have no idea how to do that, or more likely, no desire.
Mark:
Exactly; it appears we agree about education-related things–and our doing so does not change the results of related research done during the past 30+ years. As a former public school teacher, private high school principal, and senior/associate pastor of 25 years, I also have struggled with the degree to which all people require varying amounts of guide practice in order eventually to practice independently (“to master”–“be a disciple”) whatever was presented of the subject matter and to be assured of their learning it (e.g., for academic promotion from grade level to successive grade level, rather than via social promotion). The science of teaching/learning says, “Share the info in a group setting if possible,” while the art of teaching/learning says, “Follow individuals home if needed to observe how they can put that info into practice.” At our best, we do as much of both as we can–and true teaching/learning is accelerated (again, effective disciple-making is eclectic). My response above was to the challenge found in Jeff’s mention of “one-on-one” still; obviously, talking is not teaching, listening is not learning, and seniority in the role is no indication of true effectiveness even in those kinds of settings–much less in large group ones. (Cf. Effective Schools and related research of the 1980’s and after.)
guided practice :-))
Not having been to seminary, I can’t comment from a fully-informed perspective. But I did adjunct in a seminary and for five years, I taught full-time in the ministry department of Christian university.
There is only so much that you can put into the curriculum. Some of these topics may be covered outside of the curriculum (such as job search and interviewing skills) by concerned faculty or administration. Though I understand the rationale behind having such a large block of biblical languages in the MDiv program, I’m not sure that the space it takes up really pays off in the real world of local church pastoring. (Some of you may want to take potshots at me now…but remember, I didn’t go to seminary and I’m functioning fairly well as a pastor. ) Too many seminary profs have little pastoral experience and that’s a real disconnect. But I get it. Many are much better academics than shepherds and would not do so well in the pastorate.
One of the problems with changing the curriculum is the loss of turf for long-tenured professors. It’s a real and tough issue, one that seasoned professors will not give up easily. (It’s the nature of higher education.)
If nothing else, seminarians need to be equipped to keep learning. They need to know the channels of learning and resources available to them. Spiritual formation is vitally important and may be overlooked in more “academic” pursuits. Not only do pastors need to know how to rightly divide the Word, but they need a prayer life and develop spiritual disciplines that will serve them as unique individuals to put them in the pathway of God’s outpouring grace – something they’ll need boatloads of.
Gotta wrap this up. I started my post two hours ago and got “interrupted” by ministry.
…oh, and add to the list time management and boundaries.
Excellent points, Bob.
“Self-directed learners” is what the field of andragogy (teaching of adults; cf. pedagogy, teaching of children) calls it, I believe. If I am paying high per-hour tuition rates and fees to a university, then my expectation is for MORE true teaching/learning done by the prof and LESS self-directed learning or teaching-of-myself (though that is NOT how higher ed is structured these days). In Christian church-based discipling, more self-directed learning/growth–and not less of it–probably will continue to be the necessary way. Making a biblical disciple is a Spirit-led eclectic thing; person-oriented, program-oriented, process-oriented, AND pulpit-oriented discipling. One without the other three won’t do it; three without the other one also appears not to do it. (Cf. Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma approach of a few years ago.)
Hi everyone,
I have been learning about Jesus and the church for 35+ years as my father is a local pastor and my mother has been a disciple of Jesus since before I was born.
My college training was actually in electrical engineering (BSEE and MSEE).
My father graduated from Moody Bible Institute with a BA around 1984.
One of the things common between our college experiences was that we were both taught to think, do research, and how to teach ourselves new things.
I agree that we all just have to keep learning and growing as God leads us.
The college education just seems like the stepping stone to the next thing God has for us to learn.
Thanks for your faithfulness with this website and to those who contribute with positive and encouraging comments.
Best,
Gary
Southern NH, USA
Hi everyone,
Dr. Rainer and team:
Would it be possible to post a transcript of today’s post?
I think there might be software available to help with that.
Thanks for your consideration,
Gary
Southern NH, USA
Dear Brother Praise The Lord
I was told recently by my Conference Superintendent there is no reason a small church pastor should ever pursue a doctorate degree. I’m in my third year now of doctoral studies and half the classes have been on leading change. I’m learning how organizational and cultural change takes time. It requires long term investment by the pastor and the leadership of the conference and the church. I’m sad to report I’m not being reappointed this coming year. Local church leaders were very excited and on board about our future but conference wasn’t. They in fact never talked to local leaders about what was happening. Growth change wasn’t happening quick enough. I’ve learned much on how not to lead from the conference leaders. Ultimately, God will be given the glory. Prayers requested for the church. They didn’t do anything wrong. #nosilverbullet
Wow! I was just telling my Office Administrator that some key things were lacking in my training. I have a BA in Bible/Phil, an MDiv, and a DMin and never had a class, even a lecture on staff leadership: hiring, firing, leading, coaching, results. And never an orientation on church finances, running/leading a non-profit organization, board governance . . . I could go on and on! Practical theology consisted of weddings, funerals, visitation, counseling, homiletics–all good, but insufficient in scope. Today’s pastors need much more depth. Being a pastor takes the broadest array of skills I can imagine in one role.
I feel that seminary assumed a small church or a assistant pastor in a large church. Being a solo pastor with a secretary or something like that. I loved the theology, exegesis, homiletics, etc! But there was insufficient organizational leadership (OL). If I were doing my DMin over, I would have focused there (OL), but wish it were part of an MDiv.
Glad I have resources like Thom Rainer and a loving seasoned mentor. Learning on the job!
Glad to have you in this community, Tim.
I finished seminary 25 years ago. Social media did not exist then, and the contemporary culture of that day was considerably different from today. However, they taught me most of the other things quite well.