Podcast Episode #410
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There’s a continual dialogue between pastors and our team at ThomRainer.com and Church Answers. Because of this, we hear from pastors on an ongoing basis. Today we cover some of the questions we get the most.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- When considering leaving your current pastorate, always consider both the push and the pull.
- There are more resources available to churches than ever before, but it’s also harder to decide which ones to use.
- Peer opinions and expert opinions help the most when making decisions about a new resource.
- You are not the only pastor facing a specific issue. Other pastors are often going through the same struggles.
The five questions we get the most are:
- Should I leave or stay?
- What is the best resource for _________?
- What is the best polity for my church?
- How do I handle a power group in my church?
- How do I handle this staff situation?
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Feedback
If you have a question you would like answered on the show, fill out the form on the podcast page here at ThomRainer.com. If we use your question, you’ll receive a free copy of Becoming a Welcoming Church.
The substance of these questions demonstrate in a very powerful and convincing manner that men serving as pastor ARE NOT EQUIPPED to lead with effectiveness. The proof of this thesis is the accelerating decline of many/most churches across the American landscape.
Tom Fillinger
IgniteUS, Inc.
http://www.igniteus.net
803 413 3509
I sincerely hope you accidentally omitted the word some before “men”.
A thesis has not been proven yet – this negates your second point. There are many, many reasons for the decline of many/most churches which pastors, like myself, are trying to deal with.
While I truly appreciate the efforts of IgniteUS, Lifeway, Thom Rainer, and many others, there is no one reason or answer to the problems we are facing.
Amen. Many many good points and suggestions from this ministry (which I have considered and used), but they are based on a consensus of churches which may not be like the one we are in. Each pastor must look first at the flock he has been entrusted with and minister to that flock, according to its makeup, location and culture, and his own vision and abilities.
I have recently been involved in a search committee. The vast majority of resumes received the pastors stayed at churches only 1-3 years. Somehow we are not equipping men for long term pastorate.
Second, there is a view in the pastorate that the role of pastor is somehow far more difficult then the jobs the members are involved in. At the end of the day, there are personal conflicts, staff conflicts power issues, etc, in every job.
Finally, many pastors seem to not want accountability or to be measured as to how well they are doing in their role. There seem to be many that don’t even seem to feel that their closest friends are among those they minister to. That is not what is modeled in the New Testament.
And the flip side to your second point is many non-pastors don’t realize the difficulties experienced by pastors. I believe the issue revolves around a lack of communication of expectations and needs. Being a pastor is harder because pastors believe their parishes want completely self-supporting pastors; parishes think their pastors simply sit around and think about the bible because the pastor doesn’t ask for help or relate their concerns and issues.
Education is needed and the practical fact is most pastors don’t realize the trap they fall into until the end of either their first or second pastorate (if they last that long) – hence the reason of 1-3 year pastorates.
*for* not *of*
I did not mean to imply the pastorate was not a calling. My father was a military chaplain and pastor for almost 40 years. I would affirm that to be successful in the pastorate it must be in fact a calling.
However, there is an element of “job” in it. There are office hours that must be maintained. Staff that must be managed. Facilities and budgets that need coordination and upkeep. Most pastors have never been trained in office management, personnel management, budgets, debt service or facilities management. I graduated from Bible College and Seminary as well, and can not remember one course in any of these areas.
The facts, however, are that pastors prior to the 60’s and 70’s typically stayed at one church for their entire ministries. They were involved in the communities, many as bi vocational. They knew their members as they saw them at their work, and socialized with them. In other words, they were part of the community, and the church family.
Today the pastorate has a “professional/career” element to it. The Holy Spirit is not on an 18 to 24 month cycle. So the high rate of moving from church to church can only be traced to: Pressures met at churches the pastors were not prepared for; moving to a church with more members, pay, or growth potential; and/or not being able to establish the close relationships in the church field necessary to make that a lifetime home.
Hi, Mark! I read your concerns concerning pastors with great interest after reading the narrow-minded comment from Tom Fillinger. As pastor of the same church for 22 years I would like to give you my opinion on a couple of your remarks.
Within my geographical area I see pastors come and go and one thing I’ve realized is that far too many view the pastorate as you do in your second remark. That is, “it’s not a calling it’s a job”. To view the ministry as any other secular work is off the mark. I had a couple of “9-5” careers before entering the ministry and it cannot be compared to the “24/7” calling of a pastor.
Finally, a pastor has to be very careful about the close friends issue. I consider every member a good friend who I love dearly. But when you speak of the closest friends I think of someone to whom you can bare your very soul and not be judged by what come out. Sorry, but this cannot be church members. I’m sure you can imagine the problems that could and would arise from “playing favorites” in church. I praise God everyday for my wife, who is my confidante!
Amen (again). Many have no idea what it’s like to lead in ministry. We are in a spiritual battle with an enemy who works 24/7. I had a church member tell me I was paid very well for only working one hour a week. I told him that “if” I only worked one hour, he was right! But that I did do a few other things, lol. Pastors need a “few good friends” to keep them balanced …and sane, so we can laugh at times like that and keep serving with some joy in the tank. And praise God for our “best friend” at home. God is still good and understanding the difference between a “job” and a “calling” will help us stand during the down times. As the Lord told Elijah: “chill dude, you are not alone! (slight para-phrase).
I love being a pastor, but it does have some unique challenges, especially if you are in a congregational-polity church. Connectional churches that answer to an outside authority (like Methodists) have similar but different challenges.
I’m relatively new in my position as senior pastor (7 months) and one of the really big questions is, “who is the leader?” Now, of course, the search team that worked with me to bring me here would say that I have the authority to lead. That’s only partially true because a pastor in this size (size is definitely a factor) does not have authority to lead until he has built trust. That means leadership in this setting at this time is a dance of initiative and deference. It can be very frustrating! But it is also an interesting challenge in personal leadership development.
If the church I am leading (which is relatively healthy) was a secular business, I would have made significant changes already and moved things around quickly for more effectiveness. I believe that would be expected and if some of the personnel quit or were fired, that would also be within the norm. But that is not the case in a small local church where relationships are everything. I’m working at building trust with my small staff. There are issues. We’ve made good progress on some and some other significant challenges remain. It’s all part of the “dance.”
Every job and calling is hard. I get that. And pastors should be careful to recognize the challenges of other professions. We can get a bit whiney (I’m quite guilty) in these forums. Still, I love being a pastor. I love the challenges that are before me. I’ll never conquer them all in my lifetime, and that makes for a very dynamic calling.
You are not whiney, Bob. If folks could read how you minister to other pastors at Church Answers, they would see the blessing that you are.
The apostle Paul wrote of being shipwrecked, beaten 3 times with 39 lashes, and dangers from bandits, Jews, Gentiles etc., etc. — but then he adds, “besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches” (2 Cor 11). Haven’t experienced the shipwreck, beatings (at least physically) – but continue to experience the daily concern for the people of God in the church I serve. Any pastor “worth his salt” is burdened for the church to which they are assigned by the Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5). That is not something that I experienced in “secular” work. There is the responsibility of caring for the Chief Shepherd’s flock and having to give an account one day for handling His sheep which is sobering!
We have gone through some difficult years recently and seen people leave the church for various reasons — didn’t get their way for one thing and as a result were a cancer within the body. Not fun. However, we are now back on mission and a sense of unity which we did not have before. We are once again becoming a Healthy “smaller church” which is focused on reaching and serving the community around us for Christ, developing healthy relationships within the church, and intentional discipleship.
I recommend Karl Vater’s book – Small Church Essentials which will be released to be released March 6 (I received a preview copy). He has also previously published “The Grasshopper Myth” about being an effective “smaller church.” Not all churches are destined to become large, but we can be healthy and contribute to God’s kingdom.
Frankly, it is a myth to say that if you were a better leader your church would grow to hundreds or thousands. My calling is to be a pastor not a manager, a shepherd not a rancher. Not bashing those have a different calling.
God’s grace, mercy and peace to all of you who have a similar calling. The Chief Shepherd will one day reward you for your “blood, sweat and tears” for faithfully shepherding of His flock!
Thanks for the mention of my books, DJP! Thom Rainer actually wrote a very nice endorsement for Small Church Essentials, and I’ll be on his podcast to promote it soon.
Perhaps part of the problem pastors face in this day and age is that the average person in the pew is now literate and has access to an abundance of affordable and excellent literature, and has the leisure time to enjoy it. Two hundred years ago that wouldn’t have been the case, and church members were more dependent on their pastors for spiritual food. Now, because of their zeal and thirst for knowledge and spiritual growth, what is supplied from the pulpit is often considered to be insufficient by many members, either due to the small quantity of teaching each week, or due to the poor quality of it, and they have to resort to books in order to grow and be encouraged. The pastor has a harder time of trying to keep up or stay ahead of members of his congregation. If that fact is coupled with the fact that the people are also reading passionate writings by passionate men, extraordinary ministers of of the past – like Spurgeon – then real-life pastors have a hard act to follow.
Possibly it is also true that a fair few number of people sitting in the pews have themselves considered entering full-time Christian ministry at some point in the past, but they fully realised the gravity of the work and the responsibility, and the gifts required for it, and knew that they were not gifted for the task – however much it may have pained them to acknowledge it. My best friend and I took different stances on this. He looked at weak men in the pulpit and said, ‘We couldn’t do any worse than them, and would surely be a lot better.’ I, on the other hand, didn’t want to become one of those men I was condemning for hogging the pulpit. I would only be perpetuating and exacerbating the problem. Satan would rejoice to have me ‘serving God’ in the pulpit – doing it in my own way, in my own power.
Well said John, for 40 years I’ve sat in the pew +/- with the nagging belief I was meant to be a preacher. Now getting toward retirement age I’m realizing the full gravity of the work and am well aware of my failings and lack of gifting’s for the tasks involved for such ministry.
Unlike you and your friend, I would have to say, I would be immensely dependent on God to supply me with all my needs for the tasks.
That said and going back to your first paragraph, beyond discipling young believers, I would see encouraging the congregation to share during the service, with each other what God is teaching them (in daily devotions) and sharing how God is using them (witnessing outside the walls of the church building) as more pertinent then me delivering a sermon each Sunday.
I agree with you, we in the congregation have a wealth of information/teaching we can access 24/7 from books, (my most recent favorite: A. W. Tozar), TV, YouTube, etc. What I would like to see in my church, if I had one, would be testimonies from my congregation as to what God is accomplishing through us, all of us.
But that’s just me, I suppose.
One problem that I see is evangelicals have designed their own version of the “prosperity gospel”. The conventional wisdom seems to be that if a church is small, then it’s somehow a failure. I know that’s not the opinion of Dr. Rainer, but that is the impression I get from a number of megachurch pastors. As a result, we’ve created a generation of Christians who think they’re too good for smaller churches.