Podcast Episode #320
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Church replanting is becoming more and more of a need as more and more churches face death. More than 4,000 churches a year die every year, but through replanting, they can live again. Today, Mark Clifton joins us to explain how.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- Church replanting is working with churches so that they don’t die or rescuing their resources if they do.
- 90% of SBC churches that close are in areas where the population is growing.
- “An empty church is like an abandoned castle of a long forgotten king.”
- “Empty, dead churches rob God of His glory.”
- “We’ve got more church plants that need space than we can imagine, and we have churches closing every week. We need to get them together.”
- “Church replants generally value the process of decision over the outcome of decision.”
- Churches don’t have to die. They are not without hope. They can live again through replanting.
- “The remaining members in a dying church are not in the way of your ministry, they are your first step in your ministry.”
- “You know an idol is false when you’re afraid of losing it.”
- “One characteristic of a dying church is an over-reliance on programs.”
About Mark Clifton
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Feedback
If you have a question you would like answered on the show, fill out the form on the podcast page here at ThomRainer.com. If we use your question, you’ll receive a free copy of Who Moved My Pulpit?
Resources Mentioned in Today’s Podcast
- Reclaiming Glory by Mark Clifton
- Search by William Vanderbloemen
- ChurchReplanters.com
- Autopsy of a Deceased Church
A lot of times the dying church does not wish to talk to a new group of people interested in a replant. This is because the new group might not think exactly like the old group does. In some denominations, thinking differently gets you branded as not a (fill in denominational name) or at the extreme, not even regarded a Christian. Some people can’t imagine a woman in their pulpit, younger leadership, or even a candle burning, and would rather close the church than see it handed over to “the devil”.
We know Paul couldn’t imagine a woman in the pulpit.
Paul wasn’t Jesus either.
Very thankful of that.
It is so refreshing to hear from brothers and sisters who read the Bible with godly eyes and see the equality of both men and women doing God’s work. Paul did not want uneducated new believing women in the pulpit until they learnt to read and write first so they could take notes and read his letters. And most importantly be able to recognize false letters of false teachings. He told the women to go home and learn to read first. When reading the whole Bible it is clear that women played important roles in leadership such as Junia and many others. And as you mentioned Mark, Jesus elevated women. The famous woman at the well becoming an evangelist. Thank you Mark for your comments on this subject. Another note is that statistics shows that many young career women/parents are leaving the church because of the glass ceiling. And they are taking their children with them. They do not want their children taught complementarianism.
There is no doubt that we are all equal in Christ, but that does not take away the Biblical fact that women are not to teach nor usurp authority over the man. It’s obvious from your comments that you do not read the Bible with Godly eyes, but want to conform the church to the standards of the world.
Joanne and Craigl – You are both assuming a pulpit into the Bible – strict one way communication by one person for the whole expression of truth. The last time I heard a preacher justify a pulpit he went back to Ezra and said it was the standard for church life. He neglected to exposit that Ezra was a priest and all believers are priests. All priests, men and women are to “proclaim the glories of him who called them from darkness to light…” 1 Peter 2:9. Where do you get your pulpit – strict one way communication – one person, man or woman – no reproduction of this ministry to any other believer who faces the pulpit? Luke 6:40 says a teacher is one who “fully trains” their students to “be like them”. I don’t know any Bible lecturer, man or woman, who has the intention of that kind of teaching. So they really aren’t teachers as Jesus thought of teaching. Same with Paul in 2 Tim. 2:1,2. Any Bible lecturer who lectures in perpetual dependency is weak in the grace of Christ Jesus and is unable to recognize a “faithful” anthropos – that’s human being. You are both dealing with corrupt traditions of anthropos – people.
When it comes to “authority”, Jesus said “exercising authority, not so among you…” Slavery and servant status are the only positions available. It is common for Bible experts to use bogus translations or twisted assumptions placed upon the words of Paul to reject the teaching of Jesus. Example – “Obey those that have the rule over you…” Neither the word for obey or rule are in this text. Do you need more?
Are either of you able to interact about postential corruption in the current pattern of church life? It’s killing churches. Churches that are not dying are still consuming 84% of their “giving” and setting up 99% of the saints for spectating during their “worship” gathering. Those are priests you are looking at when you stand behind your pulpit but you have trained them to be stupid sheep. Most of them don’t mind the passivity and outsourcing of their responsibilities to hired pros. I’m really trying to be nice. If I’m wrong somewhere in this please let me know with some text that clears it up?
Paul received his revelation from Jesus so when you reject Paul you are rejecting what Jesus has to say to the church.
Craig, I must apologize for my lack of clarity concerning “godly eyes”. What I meant was that the Bible should be viewed through the eyes of God and not through masculine or feminine perspectives only. I must also make clear that in no way do I reject Paul’s writings. Throughout Paul’s teachings it is easy to see that he echoes Jesus’ teachings. However, it is dangerous to just glance over Paul’s writings and take what he said literally without careful consideration of the Greek language, the people he was talking to and the culture. We have to remember these epistles are one-sided conversations. Once the history is researched you get a better understanding of what Paul was talking about and to whom, and it all makes sense. Paul was talking to a particular church about particular issues. And what he said about the women not being able to teach was because they couldn’t read. Same goes for today. When a New Believer gets excited and wants to start a Bible study we tell them to wait until they know the Bible in it’s entirety before they can teach, whether the New Believer is a brother or a sister.
Tim mentioned in his reply a good reminder that “we are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession…” 1 Peter 2:9. Therefore we are all priests and we are all to preach and teach the Good News where ever possible and to everyone without letting gender get in the way and cause divisiveness. God bless and thank you for your comments.
Tim, you are correct in saying that when a preacher is behind the pulpit he or she is looking at many priests in the congregation, and with prayer the unbelievers who are attending will become priests too. And yes, Jesus said we are not to rule over others as pagans do with harsh authority, but with love and grace and understanding and kindness as we encourage each other with the Word of God, and edify the church.
Sadly, many things you have said are true but we must remember we live in an imperfect world and therefore churches are imperfect. We are to work towards perfection as Jesus said in Matthew 5:48. And as Paul echoes in Philippians 2:12 we are to “work out our salvation”. And we are not alone in doing so, we have the help of the Holy Spirit, and the knowledge that one day we will be promoted to the perfect Kingdom of God. Tim, there are many good solid churches out there with godly pastors who can help clear up some of these issues for you. May God bless you with finding the right church.
Joanne – I think you know 99.9% of churches in America practice with a deep addiction, church forms that display a false identity to the “body of Christ” or the “household of faith”. I planted a church that practiced this identity. After we grew to jam one home, and all the saints (even children) were “fully trained” to do what I did, it was time to split into two fellowships. They refused this step. Within a few months God distributed us to other places and fellowships. Jesus is the head and can do what he wants. It is difficult to walk away and stay away from false dependencies. That’s why I used the word “addiction” above. Planting new churches with the same false dependencies as the dead church demonstrates an addiction to digging sisters that hold no (or little) water. We have the resources to dig wells that overflow with living water. We are a stiff-necked people.
Correct.
One problem is that many dying churches are “afraid” to move forward as they long for the past.
At first I was just kind of glancing over this, then noticed that I had already read this post before. But, I thought I’d read some comments and sponge up any ideas that may be laid out there. However, when I came to this series of comments, it seems I have decided to leave my own thoughts.
So, humbly before the Lord and not to be abrasive, I’d just like to add to the thoughts of Joanne Venneker:
I’d wholeheartedly agree with you that “One problem is that many dying churches are ‘afraid’ to move forward as they long for the past.
However, I do not agree with you on your statement that “We have to remember these epistles are one-sided conversations. Once the history is researched you get a better understanding of what Paul was talking about and to whom, and it all makes sense. Paul was talking to a particular church about particular issues. And what he said about the women not being able to teach was because they couldn’t read.”
First, the “epistles are one-sided conversations” because (A) the Holy Spirit is the Author, and (B) Paul is exercising his Apostolic authority given to him by the Lord Jesus Christ.
Second, In the pastoral epistles, especially in First Timothy to which you are referencing, the epistle is “talking to a particular church about particular issues,” yes, but also the epistle is laying the groundwork for the characteristics for Godly pastors, deacons, and church leaders from then on and forevermore, till the return of the Lord.
As such, the letter directly to Timothy. Yes, Timothy was at Ephesus, and it was a direct authoritative imperative that Paul gave because the church at Ephesus, was tied up in false teaching (1 Timothy 1:3). Yet, to say that women could not read in Ephesus, is to say that kind of not really understanding anything of that pagan culture. More often than not, the women were the high priests of these pagan temples, and they were highly educated Greek women at that.
Third, to say that “what he said about the women not being able to teach was because they couldn’t read” is reading your bias and thoughts into the Scriptures, this is called eisegesis. I do not know what background you are looking at, but it is not there.
I also call it hermeneutical gymnastics.
Even if we applied it logically, it still doesn’t make sense. Even with application logically, one can see that Acts 16 describes Lydia who is a business woman, and even the first European church was planted in her house. Yet, nothing historically or anywhere exists of her pastoring or preaching. She would’ve been a case example for what people attempt to do in neglecting the authority of the Scriptures to apply what they what to apply.
Speaking of the Greek, as you say, if you study the Greek and are trained in it, then you should know and understand that in 1 Timothy 2:8-15 that the verse 8 verb want (boulomai) carries over through verses 11-15.
Yes, there is specifically two restrictions on the ministry of women: they are not to teach Christian doctrine to men and they are not to exercise authority directly over men in the church. These restrictions are permanent, authoritative for the church in all times
Also, the goal here is also for women to be wise learners and to not breakout with criticism and dispute. It should be encouraging, as in one sense the connection is for the pagans not to bring their religion into the church, and on the other sense for the Hebrew it is liberating as women were not encouraged to learn.
Yes, as you state: “we are all priests and we are all to preach and teach the Good News where ever possible and to everyone without letting gender get in the way and cause divisiveness.” However, this does not assume the office of the Pastor in that we are a Priesthood of Believers.
Many ladies today are too fixated on what they perceive as a “glass ceiling” in the church and neglect what the Lord has really called them to do and don’t do what the Bible has instructed them to do. Usually, this also comes at the expense of themselves as well.
Now, some folks can look at all of this as dogmatic, legalistic, or stuck in the dark ages. But here’s the deal: If you are misapplying the Bible in one area, more than likely you will misapply it elsewhere as well.
None of this is posted to be heartless or abrasive.
Sometimes the Christian ladies need to focus on what they can do, instead of what they cannot.
Thank you for your time…
Carry on.
Thom,
An ad hoc group in my small church is getting together to brainstorm on how we can help our church. Help it grow, address areas that we a lacking in, etc.
I wonder which one of your book that addresses this situation?
Marcus
I’d highly recommended “Autopsy of a Deceased Church” it is succinct and easy for lay people to get their hands and brains on. I think a book like this will prime the pump and start the right kind of dialogue!
Thanks, Michael, for recommending Autopsy. It is a quick read to help a church know what ti needs to do to avoid becoming an autopsied congregation.
Thanks Michael and Thom. Will do.
Thank you Thom Rainer for your articles, blogs and books. As a minister I find your material extremely helpful.
God bless you
I preached Autopsy from a positive perspective and it set our church on fire. We have had to start a 2nd worship service as a result.
Every summer we take our VBS to a struggling church and we also work on the church building or someone’s home. We have seen two churches grow from 10-15 people to averaging 35 or more in services. We work with them for 3 years in order to see a real change in their church.
We were so grateful to hear that one of them had 77 people on Easter and 32 of them were children. The pastor said that as a result a family of 10 would be joining.
It is inconcievable to me that the church of the living God – ”that the gates of hell shall not prevail against” -has been reduced to the powerless entity it has become.
Read the book of Acts and you will see the birth of the most powerful force ever unleashed upon the earth. The Holy Spirit working through God’s people, God’s way to bring about results that are nothing short of breathtaking in scope. Christianity – the only religion on earth where God comes to live inside a man.
No amount of church planting, or church replanting can solve this problem, as it lies at the feet of the those leaders who got us here in the first place. Imagine, America, once the land of unparalleled freedom and beauty has become a spiritual wasteland because many church leaders would rather have strategic planning sessions than pray to the living God to get His direction for His work and then minister this gospel of grace – His way – in the power of the Holy Spirit! A prayerless church is an enigma.
In 2017, Christianity’s ”soup de jour” is leadership/church planting. Observing the state of the nation, this begs the question – With all this ”spiritual firepower” that’s being produced by our bible schools and seminaries how did we go from the most spiritually prosperous nation on earth to a post Christian America? Do we not understand the church’s role in society? The church is God’s ordained instrument for both the establishment and maintenance of righteousness in the earth.
Gentlemen, ours is high and holy calling. And one day we will all stand at the judgment seat of Christ to answer for these and many other things we did while sheparding God’s flock. Knowing this, let us all live in the fear of the Lord, repent of all that which is from the mind of man and not the spirit of God and return to prayer. Powerul and authoritative prayer. The kind of prayer that get’s God’s attention. We can do this, now let’s get on with it for His glory!
Michael,
I am convinced that our “church leaders” are more concerned with numbers such as audience chairs being fulled up and revenue streams, than actually sincerely reaching people with the love of our Creator. None of us can serve two masters. The business model of church is just a conundrum that the Holy Spirit won’t permit.
At least that is my opinion after years of bible reading, prayer and institutional church observations.
One should not have to be male, married once with children, think like the current leaders, and over 55 in order to be allowed to contribute ideas.
”For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?’ -1 Peter 4:17
Blessings to you, Robert!
Thanx Michael.
I’ve got my sin issues as well as church leaders. I really am not one to point a self-righteous finger at anybody. What I have an issue with is professional pastors being intentionally deceptive and manipulative for the goal of increasing attendance and revenue. There is one big institutional church near me that seems to draw attenders from all the others fellowships due to their many programs and watered down messages and extremely progressive stances on political issues and a 30 million dollar campus.
Anyway, what I think does not matter. What Jesus Christ thinks is what matters.
@ Mark: True. You don’t even have to be extreme. All you have to do is have an opinion they don’t deem Christian enough.
It’s taken me 4 years and a lot of frustration to find a group that will even partly accept me because I’m not part of their norm. (I’m single, female, Gen X, and have no kids–four strikes. I don’t “fit” their programs, their divided classes, or their ideal for church members. And I am not welcome, though a few have greeted me–I was asked to stay at one church because there was a single man my age who needed hope. Ha.) I’ve had classes tell me when I walk in that I don’t belong there because I’m not their age, their marital status, etc. I’ve heard a pastor’s wife question the Christianity of anyone who wouldn’t vote for the person who included her pet political topic in their platform… even though the person she wanted in office would endanger the lives of thousands of local adults and children by their refusal to act on another issue. These kinds of attitudes and exclusiveness will never grow a church.
It does not matter whether it is a plant or a replant. If it is not organic and free from significant toxins it will not grow to be a healthy tree …let alone an orchard. And so it is with people. As a matter of fact much more needs to actually die, for it to be healthy. Environmental “toxins” are making most of us sick. Does that metaphor help? Matthew 25 is no joke. When did we ever see Jesus hungry, sick, or institutionalized? we missed it. The truth is that in death, the remnant can emerge. How can two walk together except they agree? A decentralized phenomenological expression of the Holy Spirit’s action and in a multi -housing setting and not in ecclesiastically owned buildings has a “sent” DNA written all over it. From home to home to home. Maybe some groups “dynamically” incarnate into a large church expression where Christ’s consciousness is pre-eminate. This is a place where people make themselves available and give themselves away together, in koinonia fellowship. You don’t need to control it. It has a life of its own. It grows all by itself. But beware, it is like our “Christian” republic-keep it if you can. It is also like a rational-principled system of holistic medicine that is rare to find today. IF you can find it…you must grow a conscience. and learn to “Do” no harm. By the way, they will know we are Christians by our LOVE, not our non-essential doctrines! The leaders will not get tired of GOD’S true-Love.
I was very encouraged when I heard Mark Clifton speak on one this podcast. His concept of churches under two hundred members as “normative” instead of “small,” and his definition of a “successful” church as “having a pattern of making disciples who make disciples that results in the community being noticeably better” encouraged me to believe that here was a writer than thinker who could cut through the cloud of me-too-mega-church insanity gripping Evangelicals today. I teach for Logsdon Seminary in Corpus Christi, Texas, and it breaks my heart to see great-hearted young pastors set themselves (and their congregations) up for disaster due to the seduction of the church growth model. So I ordered the book, planning to use it as a course text.
Much of what I found – indeed, nearly all of it – was entirely up to sample! Clifton offers a powerful explanation of why churches should want to survive: because “a dying church robs God of glory,” while “local churches are the ever-present, physical reminder of who God is.” In the place of gimmicks and schemes, he offers prayer, pastoral care, discipleship, and gospel-centered preaching as the tools of the replanter’s trade. Indeed, he even offers a much-needed corrective to transactional evangelism and statistical church growth when he asserts that, “The centerpiece of the gospel is that through the death of Jesus (I could find it in my heart to wish he had added “resurrection,” but let’s not quibble), God brought the opportunity for new life into the whole world.” One sentence near the end may be worth the price of the book: “If you have a tendency to find your worth in results, such as growth in numbers, then replanting is not for you. (I would suggest ministry in general is not for you.” (Parentheses original)
I would give “Reclaiming Glory” five stars if it were not for give pages, the five pages in the chapter, “Six Replanting Imperatives.” One of Clifton’s six must’s is, “Focus on Reaching Young Men.” Now, I knew Clifton was a Southern Baptist and that his book is an SBC publication. I knew – or thought I could guess – his theology regarding women in ministry. One cannot require an author to lay down his own theology. But this section goes too far. In the five pages under this heading, Clifton uses the words “man,” “men,” “males,” or “dads” TWENTY NINE TIMES! There is not a single reference, even in passing, to the need to disciple women.The real kicker here is that he is not referring to the training of future pastors in the congregation, but only to “leaders.” For Clifton, women have no place in the future of the congregation. And this is odd, since a recent study by the Pew Research Center indicates that, in America, women go to church more faithfully than men (40% to 32%), pray more faithfully than men (64% to 47%), and describe faith as very important in their lives (60% to 47%). So this book deprives local churches of the majority of their best potential leaders and does so without even bothering to make any kind of case for this neglect.
I think I will still assign the book. I think it has a great deal of healing and wisdom to offer. But I will have to do some serious back-filling to bring this pothole up to level.
Go back and read the “men” section again.
Brother, if you reach the man – you will get the whole house.
You can spit out data and stats all day about women and church attendance, and I can give you even more that shows the legacy of the kids if the dad is in church.
Also, if you reach the single or divorced man, he will move forward to create an impact in his future family, or even current one, as well.
Yes, you got to reach the women, so I’m not saying that. But Brother, if you reach the men – you’ll get the women anyway.