Podcast Episode #307
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Mark Dever joins us on the podcast to talk congregational singing, politics, DC life, and ecclesiology.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- “In the 1960’s church services started changing into rock concerts.”
- “I see too many churches get tied up in battles over music, which is a shame.”
- “Most pastors like good congregation singing when they hear it, but haven’t thought a lot about how to get it.”
- “You want accompaniment and songs that will encourage the congregation to sing instead of plastering over them.”
- “If we don’t have a solid definition of what a church is, all kinds of things begin to run out.”
- “A church is a regular assembly in which the Word of God is rightly preached and in which the ordinances are rightly administered.”
- We won’t all make it into the future. We have to get others to carry the gospel into the future for us.
About Mark Dever:
Mark serves as the senior pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC. A Duke graduate, Dr. Dever holds a M.Div. from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, a Th.M. from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. in Ecclesiastical History from Cambridge University. He is the president of 9Marks Ministries and has taught at a number of seminaries. Dr. Dever has authored several books and articles, most recently, The Compelling Community and The Church: The Gospel Made Visible. Earlier books include What is a Healthy Church?, The Gospel and Personal Evangelism, Nine Marks of a Healthy Church, The Deliberate Church, Promises Kept: The Message of the New Testament, and Promises Made: The Message of the Old Testament. He and his wife Connie live and minister on Capitol Hill, with Connie giving much of her time to creating a children’s curriculum (PraiseFactory). They have two adult children.
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Mark Dever is spot on! I have been to Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington D.C. and was bathed in the Holy Spirit that exists in that church. It is an inner city church in an old church building that sings lots of hymns, has standing room only crowds and has no paid music ministry staff. The 1000 or so attendees each Sunday ARE the choir. Everyone sings and they can actually hear each other sing! What a concept! There is minimal musical accompaniment and…the preaching is not bad either!
Provocative podcast. Some important ideas to think about. Dever broad-brushed contemporary praise and worship music a bit unfairly, but his point about all of the energy and focus coming from the platform is a huge problem in de-energizing congregational singing.
His most important point, however, was his linking of ecclessiology with congregational worship. A solid philosophy and practice of corporate worship must include a biblical understanding of the nature of the church. Otherwise, we’re just doing a Christian show with an inspirational message.
Good stuff to think about.
The blame for the “worship wars” is often laid on those who prefer traditional worship. I feel that is unfair. Reconciliation is a two-way street, and I’ve found that proponents of traditional worship are often willing to bend, but proponents of contemporary worship are not. Is it really asking too much to sing a few songs that the older people like? Can the younger generation not bring themselves to accept a traditional service at least once in a while?
I’ve raised these questions many times before, and I usually hear little other than excuses. On one occasion I was told to “suck it up” (that is a direct quote). Maybe I’m not reading the New Testament correctly, but I don’t believe that’s what Christian love looks like. Instead of telling other people that “it’s not about you”, maybe you need to face the fact that it’s not about you, either.
The average age of the congregation at Capitol Hill Baptist Church is 30.
Point taken. “Younger generation” was a poor choice of words on my part. My gripe is not so much with a particular a generation or even with contemporary worship in itself. My gripe is with those who insist on nothing but contemporary worship. How are they any better than the ones who want nothing but traditional worship?
The funny thing is that in most cases what is contemporary now often becomes traditional with the passage of time. The songs the older people like to sing were probably viewed as contemporary at the time of their introduction. Even the hymns were considered revolutionary at the time because they were different.
Sing to the Lord a new song is what the bible says in psalms. But that new song will eventually become old. We can still sing it and also discover some new songs on the way. We can have our cake and eat it too!
True enough. I can remember when songs like “Because He Lives” and “The King Is Coming” were somewhat contemporary. As I said above, my quarrel is not with contemporary music as such; my quarrel is with those who don’t want to sing anything that wasn’t written in their own lifetime. My sister used to have a plaque in her room that said, “Make new friends, but keep the old. The new are silver, the old are gold.” That’s pretty much how I feel about music. There’s nothing wrong with new songs, but don’t forget the ones that have stood the test of time!
I’m a Worship Minister at an A Cappella Church of Christ. Firstly, let me say, while we put a really high value on baptism I wouldn’t say our church believes in baptismal regeneration either, but that’s beside the point. I’ve loved these last few podcasts on congregational singing. Obviously it is something we in our church value highly. If we don’t have singing we don’t have music at all. We use a miked up worship team and we’ve found out that when our worship team is louder it encourages louder singing. Not everyone agrees with that or has the same results, but it is something I’ve noticed at our church for a few years now.
I agree with Mark’s comments wholeheartedly. I remember Mark as a member of my Youth Choir in Madisonville, KY. I’ d like to think some of my teaching rubbed off on him, but he was a a sharp kid, and had ideas, even as a teenager,,about what God had in store for him. Proud of him.