Podcast Episode #302
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Unfortunately, pastors and staff members are forced out of churches every week. It’s a pain that many in the ministry have felt at least once and maybe more. Today, we discuss how to respond when it happens to you.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- For the sake of your family, you can’t have a victim mentality when you’re forced out of a church.
- If you’re forced out of a church, take care of your family. Don’t take it out on your family.
- There’s no perfect church because they’re full of imperfect people.
- You can’t give up on churches just because one had toxic leadership.
- When you’re hurt deeply, one way to help the recovery is to remember how God has blessed you.
- Self pity can be toxic—just like bitterness.
- Silence from your friends when you’re being forced out of a church is often what hurts most.
- Don’t ever stay on the sidelines when someone is going through the same pain that you’ve been through.
The seven responses we discuss are:
- Take care of your family.
- Pray with specificity.
- Find a healthy church.
- Move carefully before taking another ministry position.
- Count your blessings.
- Become an advocate for other victims.
- Don’t give up.
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Feedback
If you have a question you would like answered on the show, fill out the form on the podcast page here at ThomRainer.com. If we use your question, you’ll receive a free copy of Who Moved My Pulpit?
You said at the end of the episode that the first few people to leave a comment on iTunes would be rewarded… here you go 🙂
Here’s a link to the screenshot: http://www.preachertony.com/stuff/Screen%20Shot%202017-02-14%20at%208.56.27%20AM.png
“About 3 years ago I became a staff member of a church (youth pastor). Also during this same time I discovered the podcast and what a blessing it has been. The Bible college I went to didn’t go into ‘behind the scenes’ of church life much, and my current church didn’t publicize the inner workings. I was sorta thrown into things and have waded my way through the waters. The podcast website is also helpful because Thom and Jonathan will respond to comments from listeners. I listen to several podcasts each week and every Tuesday and Friday this is the first one I normally listen to. Keep up the good work!”
Thanks, Tony! It’s on the way.
Thanks for this. Every point is sage advice. I was forced out about a year ago and I’ve pretty much been able to move on emotionally. The most challenging aspect for me has been securing a new position which is mostly due to my age. Kind of a double-whammy of a tough deal. God is certainly stretching and deepening us.
Along the way, I’ve found several books to be helpful. I do wish denominational leaders would be more active and helpful in the healing process for pastors who’ve been forced out. It would be good to know from someone “higher-up” that they understand and are willing to support you moving on. Typically, however, you become somewhat of a “leper” to other leaders and pastoral colleagues. It’s awkward, I know.
Though my “ouster” was probably inevitable from the start, I have wondered if it wouldn’t have been better for the church if I hadn’t fought more rather than “taking the high road.” I don’t know. I think about that often. The church is now in a much worse situation with an empowered cartel. I just wonder…
I like the point about being an advocate for other victims. I certainly will.
Thanks again for this.
So much truth in this. Thanks Bob.
On the other hand, remember what they said about protecting your family. Church fights can be pretty rough on them, especially if the church takes out their anger on them (and some churches have been known to do that). I don’t know whether your decision was right or wrong, but I do know there are many angles to consider.
Bob –
Thank you, my friend. I am praying for your continued healing right now.
I was forced out of my position as a lead pastor. I had not done anything immoral, abused my office, mishandled money, or preached/taught anything heretical. My experience validates the text book data we all hear about. While the situation was complicated, at the end of the day people’s “preferences” (i.e. the country club mentality), a summary rejection of embracing a missional footing in the community and in the world in favor of an inward focus/consumer philosophy, and an unbiblical view of sin in the church were the reasons for the departure. Clarity for us came when we used Dr. Rainer’s “I Am A Church Member” as a platform for a teaching series. The anger and vitriol that came was unbelievable. BTW… Dr. Rainer’s books are awesome and I wouldn’t change a single thing we did in my 25 months there. I was also not alone in my departure as 3 of 4 pastors resigned as a result of the situation.
We all hear about the 1,500 to 1,700 pastors/staff who are forced out of their positions, the vast majority of which are totally unbiblical and unnecessary. In a million years I never believed I would be in that number, but I am. And while I have had to deal with anger and depression over the past 15 months, I can say that God has been faithful to provide for my family and I can now honestly say that God definitely “delivered” me from an incredibly unhealthy situation and I am grateful. I’ve learned things in this you can’t learn in a classroom or read in a book.
To those who are being forced out or have been and may be struggling. Trust the Lord! You can do everything right and things still go sideways. He has not forgotten you. He loves you and your family. He is sovereign! Let your theology find expression in how you live through this. If we are going to serve Him and advance His kingdom, we will struggle and suffer. Remember those who have come before us in church history as it didn’t go well for most of them either. Pray, seek His face, seek wise counsel, share your hurts. Allow God to shape you through it all and remember you don’t need to be a pastor to make disciples.
Thank you Dr. Rainer for all you do to support and encourage pastors and churches!!!
Amen, Peter. I would also add, immerse yourself in the psalms. They have become my prayer language morning and night.
Thank you, Peter. You and others like you are my heroes.
Great stuff here. I lived it all. Thanks to some good people around me – a couple in person and a handful by phone – all the advice above was essentially my default response. Our family’s healthy today (emotionally, relationally, and professionally) because those guys wouldn’t let me sink into dysfunctional pity. As a family we did mourn the loss but it was grief and mourning. Their help kept me on track so that we would mourn without “wallowing” in unhealthy ways.
I’d put their influence as a corollary to most of the 7 pieces of advice here; they were part of finding that healthy body/church, they prayed with me and for me, they pointed out and encouraged me to count blessings, helped us bide our time before another position; all that support helped me stay sane in ministering to my wife and kids…
Great stuff here. Indeed, amen, and so it is…
Thank you so much.
On the other side of this equation are pastors and staff who do not recognize, or refuse to admit, that they are serving a healthy church that is becoming less healthy because of them. I watched this happen on our staff a few years back. We as pastors and associate pastors need to be mature enough and self-aware enough to realize when we are the problem. Because our Senior Pastor had too gentle a heart to confront the situation with an associate pastor who clearly did not fit the DNA of the church, both of them eventually left the church, and left a congregation not near as healthy as it once was. The Senior Pastor was highly regarded, had been in his position for 20 years, and was ruined by a stubborn associate pastor who needed to leave but would not. Recovery for the church will take a long time.
I have been serving at the church I’m at now for almost seven years. After we had been at the church for a while I found out that three pastors had been forced out before me. Now it has become my turn. I am being required to sign a contract so they will know what I am doing every minute of the eight hours I am required to be in the church office. Plus the Personnel committee is trying to remove the pastor’s authority.
If I were you I would start sending out resumes. When people micromanage like you that, sooner or later they’re likely to find some pretext to dismiss you. Besides, do you really want to continue ministering there under those conditions? If they don’t have any more trust in you than that, you’re going to be their employee and not their pastor.
You have to do what you feel the Lord leading you to do, of course, but that’s my two cents on the subject.
Dear TR,
I always appreciate your insights. Interesting list. It does assume that there was “toxic” leadership that forced them out. I have been in two situations over many years that involved asking a Pastor to resign. Both situations involved men who had been worked with regarding their extreme weaknesses in what they were bringing to the church involving skills or participation. It happens that both situations were handled as scripturally and generously as possible. (6 Months severance for one.) Counseling, Mentoring, coming alongside were offered. I do find it unusual that I happened to be in two such situations and in both, the men, while initially gracious, became bitter and blaming over time. Some of that “blaming the church” may have been because of feedback from the outside to the Pastor that enforced the position that it was not their fault and they were the victims. That was so unfair to the church and its leadership in both of those situations.
It is just a possibility that the Pastor may be unable to fulfill his position effectively—and I think that it is healthy to consider that as a possibility—or some issues may just be carried along to the next ministry position. Part of the healing may be reflection and trust that the leadership actually were competent in their decisions and protection of the people of the church over protection of the job of the Pastor. Thanks for your consideration of this possibility.
Blessings to you, my brother.
BH
What exactly do you define as “fulfilling his position effectively”?
Well BH… If the church is convinced that God wants a certain person to be called to a church, He doesn’t change His mind (God’s callings are without revocation). God commands the church to follow the pastor’s leadership. The pastor is being effective if he sets the right example for the people. The people are to do the “work of the ministry” by proper witnessing and serving others.
Where exactly in Scripture does God “command” the church to follow the pastor’s leadership?
Read Hebrews 13, That whole chapter has to do with pastoral leadership and followship
I was forced out and eventually it has become the greatest thing in my life! I’m from the Southern Baptist flavor of Christianity and it’s has healed my family to be free from that religion. The legalism and hypocrisy was suffocating. My spiritual life had exploded since breaking free!
I wasn’t forced out of a church, but I resigned, because 2 Trustees started questioning my every move and decision. In order to keep my good reputation, I resigned, because I felt my flesh about to take over and I was just tired and depressed!! I have asked God to allow me to Pastor again, if he sees fit. There are some vacant churches in my vicinity, but they have such bad reputations of fighting the Pastor.
When the article suggested to Find a Healthy Church, please explain that. Because the vacant churches in my area, I hear are Dysfunctional. So what does it mean to find a healthy church??
One of the best ways is to research their history. How many pastors have they had, how long did each stay, why did they leave and how did they leave? This will give you a clue as to what you are getting into. When you go to the new pastorate, be sure to teach them how God says to do church. That means, in summary…. 1. you are God’s gift to that church, 2. they are to follow your leadership (this normally takes 5 to 7 years), 3 they are to do the work of the ministry.
Thanks for replying, Dixon, but the issue that I have is that you said that it takes 5-7 years for them to follow leadership. In other words, it will take 5-7 years to become Pastor. I agree with what you stated. And it is very true, however I think that’s terrible. Because I feel that a Church should receive A Pastor as Pastor from Day 1. They do the same thing on their jobs when supervisors change, don’t they??
I had very happily served in a tiny congregation for three years and I did basically everything except preach so that was what the pastor put me to do because after all, I wanted to get into the ministry which meant getting some kind of experience somehow. I spent every day in that church working and praying.
This was getting noticed in that people became curious enough to drop by and some attended with a few staying. However, we have someone who is a full member of another church in another town yet, he is the chairman of this one.
He and two others made it clear that they wanted things run their way or get out which came about after I had preached once a month for four months. One of these two others would also get behind the pulpit but does feel good ministry. It was made very clear that was what the chairman wanted, feel good ministry.
Those three did things without needing to get permission yet, they fully demanded that everyone else had to obtain permission however the other of the two would consult with the absent chairman and if what was approved wasn’t what this absent chairman wanted, this permission was rescinded secretly.
This absent chairman had made plans to rush the pulpit and have me physically bounced out the church on my final day however, he was struck down the previous night with kidney stones so he was prevented from doing this.
The pastor resigned and we left together. I’m seeing to it that everyone I meet knows and that every opportunity I get, I tell of what happened because others before me had the same happen to them and others after me too so I’m speaking out until they close their doors for good.
During the storm leading up to being asked to resign, I found a NAMB guide to pray for Muslims during Ramadan.
That got my attention off of me and on to advancing the cause of Christ.
I do not know of any seminary or Bible college that teaches ministers why churches do what they do. Churches are families and follow family dynamics. In addition, some say that we live in the Laodician period and many churches are of Laodicia. The term means “Led by laymen.”
Also what school teaches a minister how to handle their emotions in a Godly and healthy manner? NONE (that I know of)!
This is excellent advice, but what is your plan to implement this wisdom?
Pastor in Residence Ministries.org is not the only ministry seeking to help pastors in transition due to forced exits, but we do have a plan that coincides with each of these points.
Thom,
I have greatly appreciated your podcast. I’ve been listening regularly for two years. There is one caution I’d like to point out. Often when speaking about pastors (like in this post), you tend to end up on the side sounding like pastors are rarely to blame and church bullies are much to blame for conflict. From my husband’s and my experience (we’ve been in ministry for over 35 years and have known lots of pastors and leaders), many times a pastor becomes very autocratic in his thinking. When this happens, while he might think he’s listening and leading well, he oftentimes isn’t. He can become very closed-minded about his lack in leadership ability and can become the driver in divisiveness. Because of the role, respect, and responsibility a pastor carries, it can be very hard to confront him especially as he loses his teachable heart and humility (especially when he does not know it). At that point it is very difficult for the congregation or the leadership to work with him and deal with issues. This either leads to discouragement and many of the congregation leaving or the church forcing the pastor’s hand and him ending up leaving and then the church dealing with difficult fallout. We leaders must be ever diligent to Spirit leading, humility, teachability, and openness. This is particularly needful in churches where church governing polity makes the pastor the ultimate leader/ruler.
Everyone involved needs to be very very careful about not adopting a victim’s mentality. This it is why it is crucial for the church to have some “outsiders” who evaluate what is happening. Someone who has the health of the church and the leadership in view and knows how to hear and discern wisely. Ex-pastors tend to favor a pastor’s point of view and a lay leader favors the leaders.
I have seen pastors who truly saw themselves as victims of horrible and controlling boards or leadership but were actually power hungry, power grabbing borderline narcissists. I have seen boards use power in very ugly ways as well. And most sadly, I know men and women who will never darken the door of a church because of this craziness.
Pastors and churches are really NOT that different than the rest of us who work outside of the church despite the constant re-enforcement that they are a special class. We deal with unhealthy leaders, poor performing employees, unreasonable demands on many fronts-customers, executives, etc. We spend a lot of time and money training, coaching, and mentoring leaders at my company which pays off in so many ways. High quality on-going training for leaders and church alike-continually understand what it means for every single person including the pastor to lay down their power and become a servant is crucial for the church to survive and thrive. Too many times the church is enthralled with Saul like characteristics and not character. Same with church leaders.
What advice would you have for those who are still at the church after the pastor is forced out?
My husband was recently informed that his gifts are no longer what is needed on the staff of our church. He was told he could accept a severance package and leave or he would be given a short but ample time to change. I’m not sure how one can change his gifts. So obviously we took the severance.
My husband is a kind, forgiving, and humble man – that’s why he is a minister. He is hurt and feels like he has failed our family as our provider. I on the other am very angry at the church leadership (I won’t post these thoughts) and at a loss for how to help my husband. Any advice?
It is 3:30 am. Four hours ago, I ensure my husband is safely tucked away in bed because he doesn’t like me dredging this up. But since he has fallen into a coasting numbness, I begin again to seek out hope that maybe after 2 years of looking, maybe someone has posted some fresh or more practical help for those hurt in ministry. Maybe… but still I am so disappointed.
Thom, how ironic that I came across your articles;
One telling of a poor hurting pastor’s wife in Houston who was never offered a practical hand up that I could tell but whose story was only used for illustrative purposes and as a foundational discussion starter.
The other, this bit of advice on responding to being forced out, with the last comment a seemingly unanswered plea for help. A cry for help floating since summer, last year now.
I say it’s ironic, Thom, because you happened to be the keynote speaker at the FEB conference in Gatineau we attended within days of getting the news that the impossible was happening to us too.
With confused and stunned enthusiasm we were jazzed by your insights on millenials, our building vision and surety of a changing and new way of approaching ministry was confirmed.
But in side conversations we admitted to colleagues that we were being manipulated, forced out, our lives turned upside down by over reactions, gossip-laden accusations, and well manipulated battles by power brokers feigning religiosity but who had the ears and loyalty of the regional denominational leadership. Yes, and from them we were hearing similar lines to what you wrote above.
Sadly this complete insincerity, the convenient avoidance of confronting truth….. the unreality of it… well, it actually has stunted our ability to bounce back. And so all that passion has, as yet, remained untapped.
We couldn’t just leave town. We had no next church or home town. We had a mortgage and bills to be practical about.
And we had a legal muzzle preventing us from starting a new work in this area. And now, we’re too sad, too heavy hearted, and too alone.
Meanwhile, our attempts to reach out for help processing our perspective and getting help for our kids so we could consider re-entering ministry are met with ambivalence. Counsellors want big money or expect we have a church somewhere that will foot the bill. And our marriage has suffered. So all the junk that these other pastor’s wives have struggled with, that might be able to be helped, that’s been snowballing for 25 years anyhow, well, it’s all compounded with new baggage. This awful, debilitating spiritual lethargy hiding our angry, disappointed pain and disillusion.
And so, while I really got a lot out of hearing you speak, it hurt to be inspired only to be sidelined. And it stings to see you throwing out advice and express compassion but not offer actual good practical help.
And we are over 50. Perfect storm.
Is God in this? No doubt. And are we blameless and have we conducted ourselves with shining maturity? Nope. Clearly not or we’d have bounce right back. Right? ?? You are correct about the bitterness that sets in.
But uber-religious truisms aren’t helping us map the journey out of legitimate hurt and distrust. The fact is, how this kind of thing goes down needs to change. And there needs to be a better infrastructure to reach out to pastors along with their families apart from churches, and in a realistic way and not necessarily back into the box that we came out of.
So, to wife of a hurting pastor from June 24, I say,
“Assure your husband that God is the provider. Our job is to follow and seek His open doors for opportunities to serve Him. But make sure you resist complaining to your husband though so he doesn’t feel the pressure from you. But do give him a bump if/when he slips into depression. Encourage him to feel it fully, but to talk about it. Create little pots of gold, blessings to count, fun things to look forward to within your lives, whatever they are at present. Let him see you keeping hope, and keeping up your walk with God. Connect with God everyday, even just a 5 minute verse and talking to Him as you go. Even if it’s legalistic at times. Keeping that connection is crucial for both of you but especially for you as the support for hubbie. No, you may never have the human support you crave but relying soley on God for this is strangely freeing.
Also, help hubbie discover little ways to use his gifts. Let him know you notice how it shows in how he interacts at a store or with a neighbour. It’ll help rebuild his desire and confidence to let God use him in other areas. Don’t make being in paid ministry be the pass/fail. Doing ministry in life is the real test. Let God nudge His way toward more in time, if He chooses. Sorry I can’t give you a hug. Hugs help too. Give them out if you aren’t getting them.”
And to the tragic story August 3, 2016 pastor’s wife, I say,
“I’m sorry I cannot offer a counsellor for you you. I admit very few these days help marriages stay together well. Women either want to escape hard marriage entirely, which is easy to find support for or they ignore and suffer silently. What women don’t get much is good guidance on being strong in a disappointing marriage. Being a help meet sometimes means communicating healthy boundaries. Yes, in a pained marriage, some emotional distance may need to happen for a time, not as punishment, but in order for you to find your confidence and solace in Christ as your companion, your comfort. There is no lonelier place than feeling alone in marriage. That is why a lonely wife would rather leave than stay. Ironically it’s less painful that holding out for romance that never comes. Practice this little exercise: Envision yourself actually stepping back from your husband. Look at him as a guy you know, a friend, someone Jesus loves but you are okay to let go. Now look at him. And see what Jesus might want to be free to work on there. Give Him space to do just that. Release your romantic expectations. See your husband as a housemate for a time. Find meaningful independent ways to let Christ use you as and where you are. Be prepared to have some potential conflict as you begin to explore spreading your spiritual wings. Just make sure your priority God-given jobs of caring for your home and family remain intact as you do. Leave margin for reconnecting and being responsive to your husband as he does reach out for your inclusion. Christ in you as you live for Him in character, conduct and purpose will be salt for him. And you will long for him less and perhaps the pain of his exclusion of you will lessen because you will begin finding your own meaning in life. No, maybe it won’t fix your marriage into the one you long for, but it may help you model meaning and strength to others and living with an eternal focus will never be wasted. I’m sorry. It hurts to be a lonely wife. So much it’s hard to even HAVE the energy to get through a day. Just make yourself take on one thing at a time. Make yourself DO at least one thing a day. You can do this. Let Jesus carry. And hang on. “
Thanks Thom, It helps me more than you know.
Thank you for your insight. My husband is also an ordained minister. He stepped down because his wife left him and he does not feel God wants him pastoring a church. We are married and have been married for 20 years. We were called to be youth leaders and have been in the position for 7 years ( completely volunteer). We have a new pastor and during the hiring a couple of people who do not favor us told the pastor some half truths about us. We are systematically being phased out. We made a promise to our group we would not leave till they all graduated unless God says other wise. The pastor and 3 deacons keep having meeting behind closed doors. Recently they have decided that the summer camp we attend is not the one we will be attending. They said it was not of our affiliation (it is). We missed the business meeting (our fault) but, not one person ever came to us and asked us how our group felt about it. We do not go to the local camp because all of the high schooler go to that camp for every school function like band and football ect. We planned a car wash and were told we are never allowed to have it at the church again because it is church members supporting the kids and not the community. The church does not give us a budge to even buy one pencil for get activities. We either spend our own money or we fund raise it. People in the church who we were once close to no longer speak to us. IF we are in the vicinity they either stop talking or talk around us like we are not there. I feel the cold shoulder and the push out coming. (right now I am very hurt along with my husband) We do so much for the youth at our church that the congregation has no idea about. we have kids who cut, drugs, pregnant, literally going hungry homeless. We have helped so many youth and families (not bragging, just saying). It fees like we do not fit in their perfect plan of the perfect church. They do not want the broken kids, the dirty kids the ones who really need help. All they keep saying is I do understand why they only come on Wednesday, why cant the parents bring them on Sundays. I hear we are not here to baby sit on Sunday mornings. I know God has other plans but, this really hurts a lot. I know this too will pass. Our pastor does not want to belong to any associations but the camp they want us to attend belongs to an association. Just like the exclusivity the church claims the SBT and Unity Association has is the same exclusivity the church is hold for those who are less. I am happy that my youth attend church faithfully every Wednesday night. So, we desperately need prayer while we go through this trial. I truly believe a church is a hospital for sinners like me and not a place for saints. My heart is broken.