Podcast Episode #286
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Church bully cartels are a very real problem in too many churches. Today we look at cartels and how to confront them when they are present in your church.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- We have too many Christians who choose to remain silent when faced with sin in the church.
- It’s a sin to be silent when God has called us to speak up against injustice.
- Christians are often hesitant to speak against injustice inside the church because of potential personal repercussions.
- It takes a lot more courage to confront injustice inside the church than outside the church.
- Church leaders must operate from a posture of courage, not from one of fear.
- Church bully cartels cause church leaders to work from a posture of fear.
- When the culture of a church turns negative it affects both the leadership and the membership.
- A church bully cartel quenches the work of the Spirit in the church.
The five realities we discuss are:
- When a cartel is allowed power, the church is already unhealthy.
- A church cartel leaves carnages of wounded and dying people.
- Church cartels drive away healthy leaders.
- Church cartels cause church leaders to work from a posture of fear.
- We are told in Scripture to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; the church cartel causes the church to do just the opposite.
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Feedback
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It is an even more challenging problem when the bully cartel are among the leaders. They do not understand Mark 10:42-45. Members are even more timid to speak up.
So true.
Thom, do you understand this passage? “…and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.” Every pastor claims and exercises authority over the “lay people”. They claim:
1. An elevating title;
2: A full pay check;
3. An office for reserving ministry for only themselves;
4. Dominate 99% of truth expression in the worship hour – all the gathered “royal priests” are expected to not “proclaim the glories…” during this hour ever in their whole life – even after they have heard 1000+ Bible lectures;
and many more.
I know you consider this practice all normal. I know the eisegesis and translation corruptions used to justify it all and still claim to be expositional. This is systemic, institutionalized, unreformed bullying called “leadership”. These very same factors are also present in the Roman Catholic Church. Just the title is different.
Do you care to interact about this? I’ve written a free book on point 2 that examines all the texts on the economics of church leadership in the NT. I don’t know of any book by any hired Bible expert on this. The current bubble of practice must be assumed true since they all want a full paycheck for ministry.
It sounds to me like you’re practicing a bit of eisegesis in your citation of that passage about servanthood. More specifically, you’re committing a hermeneutical flaw known as “proof-texting”; i.e., you cite a passage that supports your argument while conveniently ignoring other passages that speak of the role of pastors and other leaders in the church. Someone has wisely said that a proof-text taken out of context is a pretext.
Thank you for participating. You claim that I failed to cite “passages that speak of the role of pastors and other leaders in the church”. You failed to cite any text either that would reverse the clear teaching of Jesus, and demonstrate I have proof texted. You have not substantiated your rebuke of my statement.
Tim,
Your blanket statements accusing EVERY PASTOR has immediately convinced me to not waste any time reading your free book.
Hal, thanks for responding with your objection. I gave 4 points as a basis. I understand how the current practices are deeply imbedded in the hearts of evangelicals, justified with twisted scripture. The 4th point is the most obvious to see with your eyes, the direct nullifying of what protestants boast they believe – the priesthood of the believer. The demonstration of the priesthood is shut down in the worship hour in favor of an assumption that “preach the word” is fulfilled by one man lecturing the Bible for the whole time in strict one way communication with perpetual dependency outcomes. I’m just a messenger for our great high priest. I also intend to practice the culmination of the “new and living way” into “the holy place”, “opened up for us” by Jesus – “and let us consider how we can stir up one another to love and good works, not giving up the habit of meeting as some is but encouraging one another, and all the more as we see the day approaching. Hebrews 10: 19-25. This is also shut down by the practice of hiring men to dominate the worship hour. I recommend reading and meditating on this “new and living way”.
Our protest and forefathers faced death by burning at the stake for the sake of reformation truth. More reformation is needed.
I am a music minister the pastor and I were forced out by one theses groups just last week what is so sad is the good people who were hurt over this
The problem is in every organization the ones giving the money have the power. Churches are no different. As a 15yr. pastor, one deacon told me “we play by the golden rule. He Who has the gold makes the rules.” He was not kidding. You better pray that the ones giving the most money are Godly or you are doomed. When millions of dollars are on the table, ungodly cartels will thrive and feed on their wishes in the church social club. God bless these poor pastors.
Jeff, this reality has been at play as long as those who want to get paid from ministry reject Paul’s clear words and example in always combining marketplace work with spiritual leadership. Every word written about the economics of church life is written by those who want a full pay check from it. Thus there is a direct conflict of interest in dealing honestly with the eight texts where Paul teaches leaders are to earn their own living. There are three texts that are severely twisted to nullify the eight. You did not invent this system, but you don’t have to perpetuate it. The reformation did not fix every corruption in the Roman Catholic church. Protestantism did not fix clergyism. The priesthood of the believer is severely marginalized, such that it is non-existent in the “worship service” with all the priests offering no “proclaiming” as is the function of a priest. 1 Peter 2:9
When believers are led to consume 84% of their “giving” (normal church budgeting according to Leadership Journal) primarily to buy hired leaders and special buildings to benefit mostly themselves, they will be consumers at heart. “…for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also…” . The NT teaches very specifically a church life where 100% of the giving goes beyond the givers.
You’ll find the same issues with bullies qua leadership in _church of Christ (Mutual Edification)_ and _Old Order Amish_ as you do in groups that pay their leaders.
Jonathon, I’ll take your word for that. The pay to be taught element is only one of the 4 I mentioned above. It’s a big one. The Mormon church does not pay their local leaders either and they hold captive their followers with a heavy relational club. Chain-of-command oriented leadership wrapped in “servanthood leadership” is an amazing hypocrisy called godly. All 4 elements need to be cleared up with a strong dose of truth if “love one another as I have loved you” is to be practiced. I appreciate your insight into these systems of faith.
Unfortunately, Paul’s words to Titus often go unheeded:
8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
Pastors and leaders are under such pressure to worry about nickels and noses that they put up with a lot of sinful behavior to avoid the appearance of being a church “in trouble” or “weak.”
“But avoid foolish… arguments and quarrels.”
This sentence can be used against people to tell them to stop arguing thus immediately making the more powerful person the winner. Also, telling people who are complaining about everything, aka “murmuring,” as written in a number of verses, to cease is another method used to squelch an argument.
However, it is one thing to perpetually complain, it is another to go against a group who is trying to destroy a church and harm the faith.
We have been going through something similar as a church but it’s complicated as I suspect it often is at most churches. Cartels don’t see themselves as evil. Our “cartel” were driven by spiritual immaturity. I suspect that’s true in most churches. They lacked a foundational understanding of sacrificial love. They lacked any foundational understanding of Bible-based reconciliation. And they conducted so much of the attack on our church leadership behind closed doors the the church as a whole didn’t begin to understand what was going on until it was almost too late. They got themselves into key positions of leadership in the church. Because their attack on our church was conducted in such a well-planned, underhanded way, good people in our church didn’t understand what was happening and how to fight back at first. But at least in our church piece of the picture was the underlying weaknesses in our body that made us vulnerable. Corporate prayer life was weak. Formal discipleship was weak. Community and fellowship were weak. Had we been a stronger body, this attack would not have gone on the way it did. I’m hopeful and prayerful that our eyes as a church have been opened and we’re more aware of the kinds of growth needs that are present in our church. I’m optimistic that we will find a way as a church to grow through this. I’m thankful you’re talking about this subject. Unity in the church takes maturity and it takes effort. It takes people constantly working to find God’s will together as a body instead of fighting to get your own needs met first. It really gets to the heart of our faith and without strong leadership and strong Bible-based teaching in your church, it’s really hard to grow a body of believers to work together this way.
Well said. Thank you, Barb.
I’m a different Mark.
Too often the cartel is comprised of people who are long-time (like decades, multi-generation) personal friends with or related to people in leadership. Thus, people will not say anything to their friends/relatives even when the younger people are being driven right out of Christianity.
I recommended once that the younger people not go to the leadership directly but lobby the largest donors for their support and ask them if they realize that they are running their grandchildren right out of the faith.
As a pastor faced with just that situation, I told someone, “The anger of an enemy does not move me, but it is harder to deal with the tears of a friend.” It IS hard when, as a pastor, you have to oppose some of your strongest supporters.
The music department is often at the. center of such controversy.
Thanks for this series! We were the target of a church cartel last year that led to my retirement from sr. pastor ministry. Now, I’m doing transitional pastor work. My decision was exactly as you portrayed it: not a large enough group to bust the cartel and not enough energy or strength to outlast them. Many were hurt by this cartel (including a couple of elders) in the two years ramping up to my retirement. I am curious if you might consider a series that tackles the subject of how pastors,(including their wives and their children) who have been wrongly forced out of churches by a cartel recover their spiritual moorings in the time following their leaving. Thanks and keep up the good work!
That’s a great idea, Bob. I might just do that.
In reality … it’s the other way around – the Church Leadership are actually the “Church Bully Cartels”! I know of many churches, especially one in particular (an Evangelical Megachurch) where my family served on staff for 17 years, where the Head Pastor and his Gestapo Assistant Pastors and Administrators are the Leaders of their own Church Bully Cartel and have caused Mass Exoduses – driving many people away from the church and in some cases, away from The Lord! This is repulsive!
If you’ve read the news within the passed few years, you’ll know of several cases of this kind of narcissistic, spiritual abusive behavior that highlighted such pastors as Mark Driscoll and his Mars Hills Church.
Godly men stick up for people, not make fun of them.
Godly men honor women, not belittle them.
Godly men love their gay and lesbian neighbors, not ridicule them.
Godly men celebrate femininity, not trash it.
Godly men own their sexuality, not flaunt it.
Godly men pursue peace, not dismiss it.
Godly men rise above violence, not glorify it.
Godly men build up the Church, not embarrass it.
Godly men imitate Christ—who praised the gentle and the peacemakers, who stood up for the exploited and abused, who showed compassion for the downtrodden, who valued women, and who loved his enemies to the point of death.
Church Bully Pastors and Staff need to learn to be Servants, not leaders (or so-called “Servant Leaders” – you can’t be both, even Jesus said so). They also need to stop being in denial and claiming that the Church Bullying is coming from the congregation.
Many times the bullying does indeed come from the congregation. I don’t deny that the bully can sometimes be the pastor, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that church cartels exist among laypeople. Their bullying never gets reported in the press or in Christian publications.
I can’t speak for others, but I would take you much more seriously if you avoided the use of inflammatory and melodramatic terms like “Gestapo”.
It was my very first church appointment, and I was completely inexperienced and naive, and totally unprepared for what I would experience as a greenhorn pastor. Of course, I had attended a few refresher courses, but they did not cover, nor even mention, such obstacles as church bullies, control groups, like-minded cliques, physical and verbal fighting, and such. I entered my first appointment with a sincere desire to reach the lost, the backslidden, and encourage and support the believers. During the first two years, the church attendance grew from around twenty people to the upper seventies and low eighties. Unexpectedly to me, bickering and complaining started coming from certain church leaders. I ignored it at first, thinking it was just a bump in the road. I was badly mistaken. The people doing the complaining were the powerhouses, and I would discover that nobody bucked them and won. To make a long story short, my presiding elder made me stay there two more years. The attendance dwindled down to ten to twelve people, most of which were the powerhouses and the bullies. I didn’t have one single person to turn to for help and support. The people were afraid to say anything openly, and so they just stopped attending church there. In the end of the fourth year, the bullies pushed me out. I left there broken, bruised, bloody, and discoursed. It was only by God’s grace and strength that I agreed to accept another church appointment. You are so right – church bully cartels are evil and dangerous, and without help and support from other Christians, a pastor doesn’t have leg to stand on and – the church bullies remain in power.
I was once told (exact words), “Sure we [the cartel] want the church to grow, but only with people like us!” The issue was racial diversity.
Alas, that scenario is quite common. The church grows to the point where the current power brokers can be outvoted, and then trouble arises.
My thoughts are really complicated on this, but I’ll take a stab at expressing them.
1) There’s no quick fix for this, short of throwing the cartel out of the church. And that doesn’t really fix it, as chances are the conditions which led to its formation probably still exist. And they probably arose because of …
2) Ineffective discipleship, which likely came from one or both of a couple of sources.
One is inability to discern the Spiritual condition of people who join the church. If you’ve been a member of another SBC church, chances are there’s a letter available that gets you in the door. I was once a member of another denomination’s local body here, and we interviewed all prospective members and never allowed membership by letter.
The other may be ineffective preaching and teaching. And I wonder how most churches really measure the effectiveness of the Sunday School teachers in their midst. I’d bet many don’t really do that at all. Except for counting noses.
I recall a relative who had a terminal illness. He was in one particularly serious attack, and the doctor said that, if he survived it, he would still be living, but still with a terminal illness. If the local church doesn’t pay attention to the conditions which contributed to the cartel, they’re apt to fight the battle again.
Well said, Bob.
This is a big problem in small churches especially. If you take a long term view of things, there are two things that actually sometimes work. You heap as much responsibility on them as possible. After awhile they tire of it or better start to fail and quit. Then they fade away. If they do a great job, (which almost never happens), the church is the better for it. The second thing you can do is wait. Sooner or later they overplay their hand and then they are the one on the receiving end of the bullying.
Good word, John.
It’s simultaneously comforting and heartbreaking to realize I’m not alone in this experience. However, I wonder if some churches are intrinsically susceptible to bully cartels? I have been a member of my church for 18 years, on staff for 7. In that time I have seen four cartels at my church; they have all been on staff. Three are gone. The fourth is current, has ties to the third and possess a characteristic I wonder whether is unique or common; a parachurch organziation alliance. The leader of this cartel is a staffer who leads the parachurch organization.
Within the church he has amassed power and has strategically aligned in such a way as to realize two additional hires to our church staff from his parachurch organization. The church secures income for his people whose work priority is the parachurch organization. They mask that reality with ‘Kingdom’ language so few notice the misappropriation of church funds. Meanwhile, this leader gains power in multiple departments and is on many church committees. To complicate matters, on the surface he seems like the kindest guy, generally soft spoken in presentation, skilled in flattery yet behind closed doors speaks from both sides of his mouth, gets red-faced angry as he spews venom when he doesn’t get his way and falsely accuses those he deems a threat to his agenda. He will glare at you like he wishes to kill you during confrontation if you fail to back down then will end that meeting with a hug and verbal ‘I love you’ in front of everyone.
He is so liked it is nearly impossible to speak truth of the wickedness. When I was courageous and spoke up I suffered punishment from senior leadership; I nearly lost my job. Our family has persevered many years and at great personal cost, our oldest grown child rejecting the institution of church altogether. I have been asked in therapy and by close friends to recount the benefits of staying because the cost has been great. Nevertheless, there are moments when the light breaks through and I cannot help but hope for the future.
When church leadership is infilterated perhpas in jeapordy of monopolization by a parachurch organization is the cartel more endemically powerful? For those who are bullied what are our responsibilities to The Lord and the Bride because it seems impossible to speak truth in these circumstances without causing harm to someone who is innocent?
Thank for these blog and podcast. Recently I had to stand up to a church bully and it was incredibly painful but by having your podcast and blog post to refer to and examine I was able to lead strongly in the church and the bully clan has left. I believe the church is stronger as a result of your ministry to pastors, at least mine is .
I have been a church member for many decades and have seen the ups and downs that my church has experienced. I think I may have been better off before the days of the internet blogs, etc, being unenlightened about the disgraceful goings on in many churches across the country, and probably across the world, though burying ones head in the sand is not usually the answer either. As I read through all of these comments, I have to admit that if I was not already involved in a church, I would question why I would want to become involved in one. It seems that many churches are struggling to sustain or grow membership, and it may be because potential new members have experienced exactly what is being discussed here, and have chosen not to deal with it any longer. Home Bible study and the electronic minister start to look good. If attending church services leaves one feeling spiritually fed and loved, and if serving the church family is a satisfying experience, then that is the place to be. If one returns home feeling empty, discouraged, and discounted, then it’s time for a change. I admire the pastors and the parishioners who hang on for years through the stressful situations, whether the problem originates from the leadership bullies or the parishioner bullies. I can see that being a pastor can be a pretty thankless job. It truly does have to be a calling.
Take this to heart if the shoe fits, if not, discard it. But consider it prayerfully:
What is coming across from many of the bloggers and commenters these days is this: “dang it, I’m the pastor. Everyone should do exactly what I say. If they disagree with me on anything, they are bullies. Don’t they know how hard ministry is? God has given me the authority to be in charge. So why do they buck me? I might grow this church from 500 to 50 but we’ll be a purer, stronger church. Poor me. I’m always right and they are so mean to me.”
What the pew packer is thinking: Jesus is the head of this church. He has vested authority in this church through congregational governance. We called this man to preach, not run everybody off and claim the building is his. Where does he get off with this “I’m in charge” stuff? We are doing the best we know how, giving sacrificially, putting in long volunteer hours, and it is never enough for him. We used to be a church family, now we are seen as underperforming employees about to be fired.
Methinks Satan loves this stuff. Keeps us focused on ourselves instead of out spreading the gospel.
There are cartels and there are Godly men and women who speak caution and warning to leaders with great risk to the truth speaker. I recently was invited to share my view regarding a church initiative (a new plant) and immediately on expressing that the effort was poorly undergirded in prayer and spiritual preparation, was banished from the next meeting where the decision to continue moving ahead was conveyed. A true fear of not getting what ‘they’ want. Yes, a paycheck was/is at stake. (Not mine).
Seeing the fear response, I am not offended, rather, saddened and even more determined to model and work toward a church model that does not reinforce the urgency of butts and bucks.
Church ‘type’ organizations that have a cartel problem have either made/created/permitted it and deserve to die. They do not advance the Kingdom, nor do they honor the King. It doesn’t matter whether the cartel is leadership or lay driven.
The dilemma many of us face is that it is all to easy to be portrayed as a malcontent or even as a cartel of sorts when genuine discussion or concern should be processed. At that time the decision to go or stay is difficult. Stay and watch the long, sad story play out to its inevitable end or remain as a ‘voice’ crying out. Remaining has no upside…..
continued prayer might help 🙂 I have prayed for the people in this status. Bless you all in the name of Jesus Christ. May God smite the enemy and bring those righteous to the for.
You would not believe the bullying I received just 3 hours ago. I was literally shoved and pushed with force out the door of a church, just 15 minutes after walking in the door. This confrontation must have been all planned. (Surely, Tim, you did something very rude that justified this “cleansing” of the sanctuary.) These are nice saints who are doing their best to love Jesus through a system of church that is 1500 years old. The pastor feels “called” to this. He thinks this is part of “shepherding the flock”. I am thankful I was not burned at the stake as believers did 600 years ago, and was part of “shepherding” by men “called to the ministry”.
Last Sunday was my first visit. Lots of nice interaction about why I’m there. I said I was looking for a fellowship that followed the words of Jesus, “exercising authority…not so among you..” This is the text Barry gave in the very first post. I talked with the pastor, his associate, and several believers. I shared how verses like “Obey your leaders…” are both mistranslated and have heavy assumptions placed on them. The word for “obey” is not here, but it is translated here to support a thousand years of traditions where men claim an elevated, positioned, titled, authority over other believers. “…your leaders” is not specified as anyone positioned or titled or more schooled than others, but is open to any believer who sets examples of maturity to make disciples who will reproduce. It’s not institution “leadership”. It’s spiritual maturity leadership to bring believers to the “full stature of Christ”. This term goes beyond terms like pastor or elder. “Let the elders who rule well..” has a similar translation corruption. The word for rule is not found here but it is inserted in English to justify long standing traditions where we have been “manipulated” to believe the church needs men to “rule”, even though it directly contradicts the words of Jesus, “exercising authority,…not so among you…”.
This cartel was a combination clergy + layman behavior. They think they are obeying the Bible. Jesus is the head of this part of the church as much as others. I planted some seeds of transformation. He has promised to “make things grow”. I can still pray for God to bless them with greater understanding. Just as Paul went into the synagogues to “reason” with the Jews – the people of God, knowing they would eventually abuse him physically, perhaps I must be ready to do the same. I understand this is hard to receive and dialogue about.
A great solution for pastors comes from a wise old minister who mentored me while I was in undergrad school. He said: “Either marry a rich woman, develop an independent lifestyle to live debt free or at least have a savings account large enough to pay your bills for a year and don’t prostitute yourself to the people. If they don’t want you at a particular church because you love God and want to reach lost people and disciple members to spiritual maturity then God will find a new place for you. It may take him a year to do it.” I have followed this practice and the threats and attitude get bullies nowhere. My additional advice would be: “Don’t use the fact that you are financially secure to be unkind or mean like the bullies. They also need to be ministered to, and may just become a mature disciple of Christ. Check out bully Saul who became missionary Paul!”
Believe it or not……church bullies that exist in top leadership can be taken out and driven out. I have witnessed this myself. In the case I’m referring to it only took one humble servant elder who knew his scripture and possessed a spine of steel to get the job done against overwhelming odds. It was an amazing event to witness.
Thom, thanks for this Podcast and Blog. You nailed it. This past spring I stepped down as Elder and left my church of 22 years. Our “Bully Cartel” caused enough trouble that we lost our pastor (4th in 20 years) and a good number of people who stood up against the bullies, also left. We remaining elders eventually turned Trusteeship over to two founding members in their late 70’s rather that go through the fight to close the doors. Here is the “Star Wars” version of events. Prayer and a little bit of humor gets us through many trying times.
“There was trouble in the Republic. The Trade Federation was sowing discord and disunity. A Rebel Alliance formed to deal with it. In February the Rebel Alliance made their move and the Trade Federation was deeply wounded and fell back. However, Alderan was blown up anyway and the Rebel Alliance was lost and scattered. In mid-March as we said good-bye to Alderan, it then fell to the remaining Senate of the Republic to salvage what was left, although we thought that our role would be most likely one of disbanding the Republic in an orderly way, we still asked for unity and support. However, the Trade Federation began reforming and showed signs of continued discord. At the beginning of April, they made their move. Although, merely a demonstration of their lack of confidence in leadership, it proved there was little hope in the current Senate being followed. In a last ditch effort the Old Guard of the Republic offered to step in and try to continue the Republic. The Old Guard has asked us to stay to rebuild, but we have all felt the need to wander the galaxy for a while and see what is out there. Some of the Rebel Alliance have found new homes. Several have settled on New Alderan, although it is far on the Outer Rim… Our search continues…”
I am tempted to say “the force be with you,” but I won’t.