Podcast Episode #233
SUBSCRIBE: iTunes • RSS • Stitcher • TuneIn Radio • Google Play
We welcome back Mike Harland to discuss church worship preferences and arguing over doubtful issues (Romans 14).
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- The subject of worship runs through the entire Bible. Who we worship and serve is of utmost importance.
- Style of music is generally the most frequently debated worship issue in the church.
- The tunes to a lot of our great hymns were originally for bar songs.
- Don’t argue about doubtful issues—pursue unity and love.
Episode Sponsors
Midwestern Seminary, located in the heart of the Midwest, is one of the fastest growing seminaries in North America and offers a fantastic array of academic programs, including multiple online and residential options at the undergraduate, graduate, and doctoral levels. Midwestern’s new 81-hour Mdiv program, online program, and doctoral program have all been recognized as some of the most innovative and affordable in the country. There has never been a better time to begin your seminary education. Midwestern Seminary trains leaders ‘For The Church.’
Visit them online at MBTS.edu and start your ministry training today.
Vanderbloemen Search Group is the premier pastor search firm dedicated to helping churches and ministries build great teams. They’ve helped hundreds of churches just like yours find their church staff and are uniquely geared to help you discern who God is calling to lead your church.
Find out more about Vanderbloemen Search Group by visiting WeStaffTheChurch.com.
Feedback
If you have a question you would like answered on the show, fill out the form on the podcast page here at ThomRainer.com. If we use your question, you’ll receive a free copy of I Will.
I haven’t listened to the podcast yet, but please stop continuing the myth of “bar songs as hymns.” “Bar” has to do with the meter of the song not where it originated. It’s a simple meter that, yes, bar songs used, but also many others. It is a simple meter that makes it easy to sing. Many songs have the bar meter. I’d provide a link if I wasn’t on my phone.
Luther was extremely careful and cautious about the music he borrowed for church use because he wanted to avoid tainting the Gospel with worldly/sensual musical expressions and associations.
The method of Luther’s borrowing was carefulness in a difficult musical context. Harrel (Makujina p. 192) explains that the plainsong (Gregorian chant) lacked regular rhythm and therefore was difficult to sing as a congregation. But dance and drinking songs (which were quite available in Luther’s day) were too rhythmic for Luther’s purposes. So Luther wrote chorales whose rhythms were built on the accents of the words—thus avoiding the drinking/dancing element for church music but accomplishing a singableness for congregational use—and Luther also altered the melodies also. (Fisher p. 168) Makujina states (p. 193) that “Luther did not conceive of music as a neutral object that could be fully exploited in the propagation of the Gospel. Rather, he demonstrates a rare sensitivity in the field, insisting that in the cohabitation of text and tune there must be congruence. In some cases he retained or modified secular elements, and in others he rejected them altogether.” Quoting Best, Makujina says, “A misuse of history has overemphasized borrowing . . . Borrowing to (Luther) was only a small part of a rich means of expression. When he borrowed, he borrowed excellence only and left mediocrity to the devil…” (Makujina p. 193)
When Luther borrowed from secular music, he was borrowing from a body of secular music that was highly influenced by the culture of the church! Secular music was very much like church music because in Luther’s day, church music influenced secular music—not visa-versa.
And what were those secular sources? They were three:
Secular folk music (nonprofessional music of the common people) that was not associated with evil but just with every day life.
Leisen (religious German folksongs) that expressed spiritual needs) Makujina p. 191.
More sophisticated music of the day (similar to today’s art song).
But, all three of these sources were highly LIKE church music—not UNLIKE it because the church music influenced secular music rather than visa-versa.
The cultural/religious borrowing context was a Roman Church that had no congregational singing. The common folks sang only in secular contexts. There were NO melodies that folks were allowed to sing in church. And what they did hear sung in church was Gregorian chant and other austere musical forms (Fisher p. 166). AND, all the singing was in Latin!
Sources of Luther’s Hymnody:
37 Chorales:
15 = original melodies
13 = melodies from Latin hymns;
4 = melodies from German hymns & Leisen (religious German folksongs)
2 = pilgrims’ songs;
2 = unknown origin;
1 = parodied from a secular folksong
Thanks for this. Powerful bits of sharing. I loved the comment about how the dilemma of mankind started out with a worship war. Satan wanted to be worshiped.
Reminded me of a story I once heard. When Beethoven finished his 9th symphony, some Americans got a hold of it and brought it over to the states in the mid-1800’s. That’s one of our most beloved old hymns of our day. When the choir saying “Joyful Joyful”, the pastor and elders got up off of the chancel/platofrm area and called the music satanic and the lyrics about flowers riff-raff and unacceptable for worship. Ha! It just never ends.
Romans 14 is a lesson in spiritual maturity. Thank you for that today. Adding that to my quiver. God bless you folks!
Concerning the myth that “the tunes to a lot of our great hymns were originally for bar songs,” what do you mean by “a lot”? 25%? 50%? 75%? True, some tunes were folk melodies, but just look at the names of some of the composers in the Baptist Hymnal for the ” great hymns” and you will see Handel, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Mozart, etc. They were hardly barflies! In a conversation with the late music professor, Wm. J. Reynolds of SWBTS, he said that the “bar song” theory was just not true. If it is, then publish a list of these songs. I’d like to see how long it is!
I agree with the first comment. Please do some research before you repeat the myth of many great hymns coming from “bar songs”. If you through research can prove that a great hymn uses the same tune as a bar song, then tell us which hymns those are. I have never had anyone reference any particular hymn. You mention Amazing Grace and A Mighty Fortress as examples. Please send me the bar songs you say these are coming from so that I can compare them myself. The implication when you say hymns come from bar songs is that a majority (at least) are coming from that. How many hundreds and hundreds do not come from bar songs?
The last thing I would like to comment on is the use of Romans 14 to say that an older conservative viewpoint should always defer to the current contemporary view. I have seen many older, mature Christians defer to the extremes of contemporary worship. Yet, I have never seen or heard it go the other way. The impression I get from contemporary leaders is that their way is the only way. That they are the “mature” Christians and that everyone else is in the wrong.
Thanks for letting me spout. I am just tired of always being told that my viewpoint is wrong.
Hallelujah!
I guess I ought to read comments before I post my own. I expressed the exact same sentiments in my comment below, but I didn’t say it as well as you did. Bravo!
really?…. You mean, like the old country preachers in scores of country churches today who still hold to such such rules like “if you ain’t in a coat and tie you don’t deserve to preach in MY pulpit? Those kind of biblical.. scholarly.. points? You mean ..THOSE type of ‘mature’ Christians.(unlike the contemporary ones?)
You’ve made several helpful points, but please: don’t perpetuate the common misunderstanding that a “bar tune” is a tune originally sung in bars. A bar tune is a melody written in “bar form,” which follows the pattern AAB.
Yep. I agree with the first comment regarding bar songs.
John L.
PhD, Music Theory
Music profs from Christian colleges have promoted this misinterpretation of music history as well, to lend more credibility to the myth. Thank you for the well-stated replies above. To others who are influential Christian leaders, please look into hymnology more carefully.
Scripture tells us the older folks should be teaching and guiding the younger.
But I guess with all the profits to be made on having new songs weekly, the older conservative voices should shush?
And guess what? We’ve attended many churches offering both contemporary and traditional services. Younger adults were at the traditional, thin gray pony-tailed boomers at the contemporary.
Worship styles will vary by person, not age. And it is no sin to find any form distasteful and move on to where you can truly worship.
It would seem to me that someone [Mike Harland] who is leading the music division of our convention would speak with more accuracy and knowledge instead of perpetuating the myth about “bar songs”–for which the majority of listeners/readers would think of songs sung in a saloon–and of referring to Martin Luther’s great hymn as a secular tune.
Furthermore, the text of Romans 14:19 leads us to seek compromise within the church on whatever issues exist. However, it does not infer that it must always be the older population that should give in to the younger who often believe themselves to be more spiritual than the older grays of the congregation. Both sides of any issue should seek some sort of compromise for the good of the church and for the glory of God.
Let’s talk about Amazing Grace— Mr. Harland stated that Newton’s Amazing Grace was bar song (saloon song) to which his words were set–because Newton spent a lot of time in bars. If one were to research Amazing Grace, it would be discovered that the words were originally published in 1779 by themselves without a tune. The tune, New Britain, was originally a “folk tune” which was published in1829 and first set to Amazing Grace in 1835 in William Walker’s Southern Harmony, long after Newton was dead and gone. Thus, Newton did not set his poem to any tune; someone else did!
The whole point I am trying to make is whoever serves in the leadership positions should be knowledgeable of that which they speak and write.
If all the people above are right, and they seem to be in agreement, why doesn’t Mike Harland counter with evidence to support his position? If he was wrong in what he said, why doesn’t he admit it?
I don’t have a quarrel with contemporary music per se, but I’ve found too many proponents of contemporary worship have a “my way or the highway” attitude. They claim God can be worshiped in more ways than one, yet they’re often the first to leave (or threaten to leave) if the music doesn’t suit their tastes. For the past two years, the music at the Southern Baptist Convention has been almost exclusively contemporary. Some people enjoy it, but it’s clear that many do not.
I’m not asking that we get rid of contemporary music altogether. All I’m asking is that we show some consideration for people who have more traditional tastes.