Podcast Episode #106
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Many churches are averse to change when it comes to traditions. And pastors and church leaders often realize problem areas too late. So today on the podcast, we cover the ten most fiercely defended traditions in the church and discuss ways in which you can enact change if and when it is needed.
Some highlights from today’s episode include:
- Worship and music style are not as divisive as they once were.
- Items related the worship service (time, structure, elements, etc.) are the hardest to change in a church.
- One of the ways that change can be implemented in a church is through a sense of urgency.
- Smaller churches tend to have more expectations for pastors than larger churches.
- Many churches have too many committees and non-functioning committees.
- Business meetings have become a source of division in churches rather than one of direction.
The 10 most fiercely defended traditions are:
- Worship and music style.
- Order of worship service.
- Times of worship service(s).
- Role of the pastor.
- Committee structure.
- Specific ministries and programs.
- Location of church facility.
- Use of specific rooms.
- Business meetings.
- Staff ministry descriptions.
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Feedback
If you have a question you would like answered on the show, fill out the form on the podcast page here at ThomRainer.com. If we use your question, you’ll receive a free copy of Autopsy of a Deceased Church.
I wish you could make transcripts of your pod-casts available. I would rather be able to read them. I have no time to listen to them.
Thank you
We may look at that in the near future, Wayne. For now, we use the blog for those who would rather read, and the podcast for those who would rather listen. We hear from many podcast listeners who listen to each episode while traveling in their cars.
My favorite line: “This pastor wasn’t forced out, he was frustrated out.”
Never heard of ELO????? – boy I do feel old, they were one of my favorites.
Yep. I’m even older!
Yeah….sorry….the 70s and 80s are a black hole in music for me.
There is a big difference in holding forth the traditions of the faith opposed to being traditional by mindlessly doing things the way we’ve always done them. I appreciate this great resource. Thank you for presenting each topic in a clear and concise way. It challenges me to be aware that everything we do needs to be evaluated because must constantly strive for excellence. Philippians 4:8
Thank you, Ron. Well said.
I would second Wayne’s comment regarding a transcript. I have found many of the articles extreme informative and helpful, but tend to skip past the podcasts due to time constraints. Thanks for taking the time to investigate the possibility of doing this, Thom!
Until we do transcripts, you can see a detailed outline of the podcasts at my blog on Tuesdays and Fridays.
Having survived the worship wars as a worship leader, I’m glad it has eased up a bit although it still rears it’s ugly head from time to time. However, the focus of the war has shifted to the many “flavors” of worship music available in a ten mile radius from the church where I serve. If someone doesn’t like my leadership style, they just go to another church. This is a disturbing and frustrating trend and is becoming the norm even among commited Christians. I have also noticed a trend to “use” the programs of multiple churches, never settling into one church. The consumer mindset has inserted itself into our churches.
Alas, I’m afraid you’re right. I see that sort of thing in my own community, too.
As a lay person, I find it very disturbing that practically every edition of this blog seems to be belittling or ridiculing the traditions that are part of a church’s structure. It seems as if we have always done it this way it must be bad and needs to be done away with so that we can attract the newer, better educated, more connected people in our communities. In case you haven’t noticed our nation is going to hell in a hand basket! Most churches, except for the mega churches are practically empty. Many no longer believe in a real hell, moral standards, or the exceptionalism of Christianity. Yes, the mega churches are full. Many of the sermons you hear there sound more like a positive thinking presentation than a sermon on the dangers of sin and the reality of hell. Does this sound like a rant from some one opposed to change in any form. If so, maybe you need to read it again asking yourself what exactly is this man saying. I have seen a lot of change in the 50+ years I have been in the church. Some of it good, some not in my opinion. I judge change on the basis of whether it is making the church stronger, not in numbers but in faith. A building full of a bunch of mamby-pambies with no real understanding of the gospels is a nice social group, not a church. Our seminaries seem to be producing more sociology and psychology majors than learned men and women of the Word. This is just my opinion and I am probably going to create a bunch of comments about how people like me are the problem with churches today. At least we are still in the pews.
Dorsey –
Wow. You do sound like your ranting. I am a layperson who reads this blog regularly, and I don’t see what you see. If you view this blog this way, it makes me wonder how your other perspectives are skewed.
Mr. Davis –
I am a layman in my church as well, and your rant is way off target. Please don’t transfer your membership to my church.
Dorsey –
The nature of your rant demonstrates your own issues. If you have a problem with this blog, the simplest thing to do is not read it. No one forces you to read this or anything else that disturbs you. But you took time to be critical and negative. Your comments disturb me more than anything I’ve read on this blog.
Dorsey –
I totally agree with Harold. You have shown your true colors by your rant. Wouldn’t it have been easier just to move on from this blog instead of trying to create dissension? You said you are still in the pews. That scares me.
Mr. Davis,
As a pastor, your attitude toward change and tradition would cause me great concern. If we read the gospels, I think Jesus would be considered as One that challenged many long-standing traditions of man. Every tradition in church is not bad, but if traditions stunt or hinder a church’s ability to reach people or grow the church in discipleship then it MUST be examined very closely and changed or eliminated. you also mentioned that traditions are eliminated “so that we can reach the newer, better educated, more connected people in our community”.?? If these things that we have always done get in the way of reaching people with the gospel (no matter what their position in the community) then they must absolutely be removed as they are stumbling blocks to the advancement of the gospel. Just think if Jesus had not challenged the traditions of man – which by the way, are what most traditions in church consist of – we would still be living under the burden of the Law, under the sacrificial system and our eternal soul would be in peril.
Dorsey,
Your first sentence screams “I’m all for tradition.” What is wrong with discussing and rethinking certain traditions? Why are outdated committee meetings still held which do nothing but generate a paper report for another committee? That is tradition that needs to go to the history folder. Why shouldn’t minsters understand sociology and psychology? I bet Paul understood Greek thought when he spoke in Athens. What is wrong with seeking input? If more churches sought input from members perhaps Christianity woud be.a better position. I am glad Dr. Rainer has this blog as it lets ordinary people contribute ideas and brings to light issues that need to be rethought.
“Many no longer believe in a real hell, moral standards, or the exceptionalism of Christianity.”
I don’t know of any prominent Southern Baptist leader, including Dr. Rainer, who would not affirm all three of these things.
“Our seminaries seem to be producing more sociology and psychology majors than learned men and women of the Word.”
On what basis do you make that claim? Thirty years ago Southern Baptist seminaries were getting pretty liberal, but things have changed since those days. I’d put the doctrinal soundness of SBC seminaries against any in the world.
Dorsey –
I read your comment and was reminded of our church’s last business meeting. It was awful. Most of the loud people had the attitude you display in your comment. Please find another blog to do your ranting. I love this blog because we can have civil conversations even if we disagree.
You can increase the speed of playback on podcasts to help with your time constraints. It gives me more time that way, than it would to read them. Isn’t technology great????
Is “tradition” a dirty word? I don’t think so, depending on the nature of the tradition. Many traditions are part of a church’s character and personality, and a wise pastor can use them to great advantage. He can use them remind his people what the church has been in the past, and to point them toward what the church could be in the future. I worry that many younger pastors are declaring open season on anything they see as “tradition”, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a healthy thing. Change is not always good.
That being said, I agree that most of the “traditions” on your list are pretty trivial, and they’re hardly hills on which I’d be willing to die. I encourage both pastors and laypeople to choose their battles wisely.
I also dislike negative responses to these articles and comments. I personally as a veteran pastor love the issues discussed and the feedback that comes. As a leadership group they have often become the catalyst for some great and thoughtful discussions about our own church and where it is going. Even if we do not always agree at least hearing other perspectives broadens our understanding of differing views. I wish that these blogs had been available when I was a younger pastor. Keep encouraged Thom for you are blessing many.
Thank you so much, Brian.
I agree with the comment regarding transcripts. I work in a quiet environment where I allowed to work on quiet projects. I am interested, but don’t have the ability to listen – and would love to read the transcripts!