Podcast Episode #072
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Brad Waggoner returns to the podcast this week to discuss how to lead when you’re not the top leader in an organization. Brad also tackles the question I hear most frequently from church staff: What do you do when you don’t really agree with the pastor’s vision for the church?
Some highlights from the episode:
- A leader’s success is built upon trust and alignment with the staff.
- Work hard to stay aligned with the leadership in your organization
- If the pastor does not have any role in the hiring of other ministerial staff, that is often a recipe for disaster.
- Pastors need to feel comfortable with and trust those who serve alongside them.
- As a second-chair leader, you have to genuinely care that you are helping the first chair succeed.
- We are called to availability, not specifically a certain label in a certain position.
Episode Sponsor
This podcast was brought to you by Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Doctor of Ministry program. If you want more out of your ministry, want to study with a world-class faculty and need to stay where you currently serve, the DMin at Southeastern is the answer for you. Visit SEBTS.EDU/DMIN for more information.
Feedback
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Thom. Thanks for addressing this topic with Mr. Waggoner. I think it’s a vital topic in the church, as Satan loves to sow division with this pastoral staff. If he can divide there, then he can create all sorts of trouble.
This is a topic important to me. I have been both first and second chair. We are competitive as men most of the time. Even in ministry. I have sought to apply Romans 12:10 to this setting: “Outdo one another in showing honor…” That’s a competition where the Kingdom wins, when we succeed!
That is the theme of a little booklet that is about to be released on this topic (http://www.doulosresources.org/books/books/booklets/outdo.html).
Thank you for consistently presenting helpful topics (&podcasts) for the church and church leaders.
Thank you so much for your kind comments, Adam. You are exactly right. Anything that erodes the trust between the first and second chair makes the situation untenable.
Thom, thank you for your excellent topics and discussions. This topic is close to me as I serve as Executive Pastor. I have served as senior pastor in the past. The role of a staff is to carry out the vision of the Senior Pastor. If I don’t agree with that vision, I need to find a new church.
We all serve for the purpose of growing the Kingdom. We need to remove self and put the focus on Him.
Highly important topic Thom. Those of us in ministry are so passionate about our calling it is easy to lose sight of how we submit to other leaders. – Brad said it well, “We are called to available.”
Hi, Brad. Oh, you, Thom. 😎
Thanks Thom for sharing. The statement lead by example go’s a long way in such cases.
Excellent summary. I never thought much about being “called to availability” but I concluded from your discussion that it’s the way I have lived my career life.
I currently serve as Pastor to two small rural churches where I am the only pastoral staff (I guess that makes me the Senior Pastor by default) but I served as the Associate Pastor in a much larger church for four years. During that time, the most common question I received, in context of my talents and abilities, was, “Why are you serving here as number 2? Why aren’t you the number 1 somewhere else?”
My answer has always been, “I’m not number 2, I’m the Pastor’s number 1.”
Thom-
Loving this message. A question (or 2):
What happens when a #2 is living out what he she thinks (multiple conversations, lots of affirmation from the #1) is the vision of the #1, only to have the goal line constantly change? What happens when the vision shifts? When someone is hired to do one thing, is told that their visions are aligned, but the the reality is different?
Thom
– I loved, loved, loved your recent article on the great and iconic Joe Hendrickson, what a blessing to your life and how your life has impacted thousands since that decision.
As an Associate Athletic Director at UA from 1998 to 2003, I was led and fed by four men who GOD used in a mighty way in my life to bring me into a saving relationship with Jesus. Upon reading your article, I had to write all of them to “say thanks” one more time. However, with modern day internet I was able to reach them immediately and all responded immediately as well. Wayne Atcheson, Rob Cain, Tommy Ford and Randy Ross served as my Coach Hendrickson during those 5 years – what an eternal difference it has made. I work on staff and serve on the Board of Directors of Oklahoma Jail and Prison Ministries’ with a fellow named Joe Williams (he shared your article with me), another Thom Rainer fan. Again, thanks so much Thom and keep up the great work,
Bill Farley
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma