Numbers of gifted persons and organizations have studied the phenomenon of the church “back door,” the metaphorical way we describe people leaving the church. And there will always be the anticipated themes of relocation or personal crises. We should recognize those issues, though we can respond to the latter more than the former.
But all the research studies of which I am aware, including my own, return to one major theme to explain the exodus of church members: a sense of some need not being filled. In other words, these members have ideas of what a local congregation should provide for them, and they leave because those provisions have not been met.
Certainly we recognize there are many legitimate claims by church members of unfulfilled expectations. It can undoubtedly be the fault of the local congregation and its leaders.
But many times, probably more than we would like to believe, a church member leaves a local body because he or she has a sense of entitlement. I would therefore suggest that the main reason people leave a church is because they have an entitlement mentality rather than a servant mentality.
Look at some of the direct quotes from exit interviews of people who left local congregations:
- “The worship leader refused to listen to me about the songs and music I wanted.”
- “The pastor did not feed me.”
- “No one from my church visited me.”
- “I was not about to support the building program they wanted.”
- “I was out two weeks and no one called me.”
- “They moved the times of the worship services and it messed up my schedule.”
- “I told my pastor to go visit my cousin and he never did.”
Please hear me clearly. Church members should expect some level of ministry and concern. But, for a myriad of reasons beyond the scope of this one blogpost, we have turned church membership into country club membership. You pay your dues and you are entitled to certain benefits.
The biblical basis of church membership is clear in Scripture. The Apostle Paul even uses the “member” metaphor to describe what every believer should be like in a local congregation. In 1 Corinthians 12:12-31, Paul describes church members not by what they should receive in a local church, but by the ministry they should give.
The solution to closing the back door, at least a major part of the solution, is therefore to move members from an entitlement mentality to a servant mentality. Of course, it is easy for me to write about it, but it is a greater challenge to effect it.
May I then offer a few steps of a more practical nature to help close the back door by changing the membership mentality? Here are five:
- Inform church members. Though I do not have precise numbers, I would conjecture that more than one-half of church members do not have a biblical understanding about church membership. Providing that information in a new members’ class can move an entire congregation toward a servant mentality.
- Raise the bar of expectations. We have dumbed down church membership in many congregations to where it has little meaning. Clarify expectations of members. Again, doing so in the context of a new members’ class is a great way to begin.
- Mentor members. Take two or three members and begin to mentor them to become biblical church members. After a season, ask them to mentor two or three as well. Let the process grow exponentially.
- Train members. Almost 100 percent of pastors agree that their role is to train and equip members. But almost three-fourths of these pastors have no plans on how they will train them (see Ephesians 4:11-13). I will address this issue more fully on my blog next Wednesday.
- Encourage people to be in small groups. Those in Sunday school classes and small groups are more likely to be informed and functioning church members. In others words, there is a much greater likelihood of a member with a servant mentality to be in a small group than not.
What are you doing in your church to close the back door? What are you doing to move members from an entitlement mentality to a servant mentality?
Great post! In the 4 years Pastoring at our church I have seen the greatest results thru one-on-one mentoring w either a man or a married couple to train them. It takes time but it brings results! And, slowly a church can be transformed.
Good point Tim. Thank you.
Thom, it follows, does it not?
Please consider this.
Bill Gates once said, “The most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning.”
If that is true, why are most evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians quick to say, “Those leaving the church are just not committed to Christ.” Or, worse, to quote the words of Thom Rainer, CEO of Lifeway Christian Resources, “I would therefore suggest that the main reason people leave a church is because they have an entitlement mentality rather than a servant mentality.”
Really? “Entitlement Mentality?”
If a company like Microsoft were to adopt such logic to explain declining sales or why fewer and fewer were buying its product, you don’t have to be a Bill Gates to figure out what future Microsoft would have.
If your “most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning,” wouldn’t it be more humble, even more Christ-like, for churches and church leaders to ask, “Might there be something wrong with us?”
I believe those two things are unrelated. It’s simple to me. You can’t compare a corporation to the Lord’s church. Those are two different things.
Kim- Your comment is a justification and change of subject. The connection made between the comment by Bill Gates and that of the attitude of the Church is certainly a fair one. For example, most of our churches today are not even really teaching the Bible, but rather just giving a feel-good message every sunday. We need to re-evaluate ourselves. If the product is not selling, then maybe it is the packaging, or maybe the product is not doing what it should be. People do not return the things they love. God is love, if His message is spread in a way that is honorable and TRANSFORMING then people will not want to leave. You need to address the points made in conversation otherwise your comment is useless. I am not trying to be mean, I am just calling you out because the response you gave is an excuse I am used to hearing.
Jesus spoke in parables so the unchurched and new believers could understand.
Many church leaders seem to get defensive when a wrong cord is struck. That’s a lot of the problem today. Many educated Pastors today are no more than business leaders with big businesses called The Church, in order to fleece the sheep and pad their pockets! This is where most of Gods people are treated like a commodity, so Pastors can have careers. If every fringe benefit and big salaries were stripped away, how many Pastors or under shepherds would remain? This is a lot of why people leave a church. Its what sheep can do for the shepherd with how he runs his business, until sheep are fleeced to being bare, instead of what the shepherd does for the sheep. The sheep are desperate for shepherding. Instead they are being devoured by wolves. Jesus didn’t come to be served, but to serve His people. Most Pastors want want want instead of serve serve serve. Preaching on Sunday is not what Jesus had in mind.
Christianity is really a faith-based spiritual organization. It is more than that because there are many physical psychological and social things that must be addressed.
For the most part, today’s church has become a corporate business, that is run by business men, not shepherds. Its more than obvious!. So Dr. Swains comparrison is pretty accurate.
The reason I left was because of a wicked evil shepherd that intentionally hurt people, including myself, and his preaching of false doctrine was based on pride and lies. Even though he was confronted many times because of his behavior, the faults always got twisted back to not being his fault. He is the one with entitlement issues and wanting to be served by All. I could longer be apart of falseness and hypocrisy. If I’m called disobedient for standing with Jesus and Truth instead of man and lies, then so be it. I have no regrets.
I am sick and tired of pastors and do-gooders telling me that “you can’t compare church work with the business or secular world.” Sure there’s an element of truth in this position; HOWEVER, I suggest it is just a convenient way for pastors and leaders to duck their responsibilities. Pastors don’t like a business model because it would force them to be “accountable; they prefer to deal in theories that have “no measurable outcome(s). Great if you can get away with it.!
I do agree that at times entitlement may be a factor, but it is far from the only factor. I know many people who wholly love the lord, who are serving constantly, and giving of themselves. And you know what, sometimes they just got burnt out. It happens. Sometimes churches fault to preach sound doctrine, sometimes leadership is weak. There are a myriad of reasons why people leave a church.
On the whole comparing church to a business: I was a part of a church that was allegedly run by a guy who had earned a business degree — something along an MBA. I have never been in a church in my life that has so closely mimicked Corporate America as this church. It has been exceptionally hierarchical (part of the Discipleship Movement).
People were promoted into leadership based on how well they met the church’s expectations and/or based on how close a relationship they had to their immediate upline leader. The whole model was a lot like an MLM, except that the “carrot” was ending up part of a church-planting team, at which time, you’d end up with some level of autonomy or lessened accountability (since your “accountability partners” would then be sycophantic peers, rather than superiors, or anyone who would potentially challenge you).
I was in this church for most of five years while in college. They were well-intended people; but the environment honestly struck me as somewhat toxic. We want to talk about a consumer-driven church filled with “entitled” people; well gee, I just wanted a church where I could focus on Jesus and serve, rather than be told I wasn’t allowed to serve, and have to be distracted by legalistic standards and people in leadership patting themselves on their backs, even as they ignored the concerns of us underlings.
For the record, this is the only church I can think of where I was involved for more than a year and have tragically had to leave and distance myself from it. This is the one I was a part of and had to “leave”. I hope that doesn’t make me “entitled”, just because I wanted to be treated with kindness and respect. I didn’t need a ministry in church. I could sweep the floors or clean the toilets. I just wanted to be treated with dignity, that’s all. But this is the church I “left” / distanced myself from.
I’ve been in churches that were like families. This was not one of them. Personally, I like the “family”-type churches. They tend to make me feel glad to serve them.
Unfortunately, The church itself compares itself to a corporation. It runs itself as such. And too often it is the leadership of the churches that have a sense of entitlement. What happened to the servant-leader model that Jesus set? I’ve watched too many people turn servant-hood into pastor-worship. i.e. ” If you walk the line and don’t question us, you are a man after God’s own heart.”
Maybe I am being sensitive. I was ask by the pastor’s wife to do several things in the church. She told me to think about it and get back with her in two weeks. I said okay. I agreed to help with children’s church and sing in the praise team. A few weeks later she hints that the lady doing the children’s church does not need any help. When I was ask to pick out songs for the praise team the songs I chose were changed at the last minute. I also ask if the church could go out in the neighborhood and have services in the park, Bible School in the local YMCA, this was ideas to help are small Church of twenty of less attendance, to grow. I have brought my grandchildren to church with me, when others bring their little ones to church they ask them to go out to the building with the other children, my grandchildren are never ask if the want to attend children’s church. In fact, I was told I could take them to the basement and teach them myself. Everytime I am ask to do something for the church I do it. It just different small things that make me feel like they do not want me in the church. The pastor’s wife has to ask her sister-s every time anyone makes a suggestion, not just me, everyone. She said let me run it by my sister-in-laws and see if it’s okay. I think the whole church should have a vote, not just a handful of people. Maybe I am wrong. I just thinking of going somewhere else. I don’t need to have a job in the church, just to feel wanted.
yeah girl
I think blaming it on entitlement avoids what is really wrong in many cases: self-centered pastors and church politics driving people away
You are absolutely right, Sandy.
Amen to self-centered pastors and church politics do drive people away in addition to too many programs. Churches have come up with the idea that programs take up 80% of the ministry and we give 20% of the gospel only on Sunday.
I have been attending a church that I am very interested in regarding membership and becoming a servant there. I have attended for more than a month and the Pastor has said almost nothing to me about anything. I have attended morning services, evening services, men’s breakfast and have plans to be involved further. I feel ignored by the Pastor who does not seem interested in me whatsoever. I don’t expect him to become a personal friend or even confidant, I just want to know he is interested in me as a future member and that he cares. I don’t expect him to speak to me all the time either, he has many obligations but it seems to me that if I come or don’t come it really doesn’t matter to him. I am seriously thinking about leaving even though the church has drawn me in and I want to be a part of it. The Pastor seems anointed, his teachings are very beneficial to me but now I just feel like it doesn’t matter if I am there or not. Any advice?
Agreed. Totally. It’s like that where I am now. Roughly 90% of the people at the church I attend now are cold, formal, hardened in their hearts and self centered. Had a mild incident last night at a function with a lukewarm believer and her mother. That was the last straw out of a string of events leading up to it. At the church I attend, 90% of the people don’t want a revival. They don’t even want the Holy Ghost. They just want country club politics and playtime to keep busy and keep up appearances. Fellowship and love is a two way process. Saying guys like me feel “entitled” is a “cop out” and is blaming the defecting believer instead of the establishment and its demonically plagued believers.
The church is missing the love of Christ and God.
This is just a comment regarding the possibility of leaving my present church, just information that I believe relates. I have been attending a church since October 2015 attending all the services, morning and evening, I have participated in just about every Wed. night service, I have attended Men’s breakfast and currently helping with VBS. I have even donated a vehicle which really doesn’t have anything to do with this. Just showing my wish to be involved. Due to some rather difficult situations personally, my wife and I have not been able to attend any services for about 3 weeks now. I don’t require much at all as far as needs but I kind of expected someone to find out why we are not there. No follow up has been made and it really bothers me. The other thing is that the Pastor has had very few words for me and seems like he avoids me. I just don’t know what to do or feel about this. Just letting you know that these kinds of things do cause people to leave a church. Oh, 2 Pastors and 6 Elders, no call, no attempt to find out what has happened.
P. Tefft – Sometimes the pastor or elders don’t call because they don’t want to make you feel guilty for not being able to make it for a few weeks.
To an extent your post is correct. Consider it is immature board members trying to run the church like a business instead of a soul-healing and soul-saving station. The pastor probably has a vision for this, but it is often immature board members that make it an unhealthy situation. They buck the authority of scripture, and carnal/selfish/immature people do this. When someone does not care about what scripture teaches, it will always result in being against the pastor, if they have a vision that is Kingdom-conscious. You are supposed to nominate spiritually mature people that are Kingdom minded and not just socially minded. Unfortunately, it falls on the pastor because immature people do not want to hear the truth, are only socially conscious and not Kingdom conscious. Having an appearance of a church is more important than the truth truth. Often, people that are not Kingdom-conscious do not like a pastor that preaches the Word because scripture contradicts them. If you are a pastor that preaches the word, and the congregation/denomination does not want it,, it is because the Bible ultimately contradicts them.
Sometimes people leave because they were simply goats trying to walk among sheep and it just got old after a while. A work of the flesh will not last forever with most people.
Other times true sheep leave because the goats have overrun the congregation and it makes the sheep feel out of place just being there. There really are church buildings full of worldy, unregenerated people that play church to make themselves feel right with God and they reassure each other with their presence that they are.
So true! This is it: church politics and self-centeredness.
I’ve recently I’ve recently had to leave a church that that is regarded by many as above reproach. However despite Sian biblical doctrine I was not being discipledcipled, all supported. The Very things this author says churches should be doing. This church in particular has got comfortable in it’s position so that these days see no need for Change. This is a cancer spreading throughout the reformed churches as well as the liberal.
I agree that politics out stages the love of Christ in many of my local churches. Politics is talked about at bible studies as if the GOP is God’s church, and those churches do run businesses such as thrift stores. Some even ask me to volunteer my time at those stores, sorting through nasty linens. I’m like no way am I coming out of retirement to work for a church ran like a business, because it is a big business.
-“Jesus spoke in parables so the unchurched and new believers could understand.”
– althouh I grew up hearing that same thing, after recently re-reading Matthew 13 i don’t think that’s actually true. The disciples asked Jesus why he spoke in parables and he said that it had been given to them (the disciples) to know these thongs, but to them (the crowds) it had not been given, and he went on to quote a “curse” of sorts from Isaiah about them being able to see yet not seeing and being able to hear yet not hearing. He then goes on to explain the parables to the disciples, but apparently, not to the craowds.
Very true.
I’m just setting this entire writing and all post to Pastor Thomas’s message.
To God be the glory. The post complaining Mr. Gates analogy was wonderfully made. People are being broken and torn more today by leadership than ever before and not taking the abuse mentally before a lot of Picked By Man Leaders or Picked by themselves leaders are pushing their sense of entitlement on the believer and trying to say it’s what Jesus says, but God is pulling the wool off his children’s eyes, more and more because he will not continue to allow church leaders hurt his children when they are suppose to be able to come to the hospital to get restored, revived, renewed reborn. To many Shepherds are taking ownership of Their Church, not Gods Church. Yes there areany who leave for their own issues, but like an Owned Business, From the pulpit The Boss or Founder of the building and it’s title boldly make it clear, Like it my way or leave. Sad. Sad. Sad…… Who would Arrogantly tell someone follow My Way or hit the highway when The church is Jesus foundation and the fullness thereof. My spirit grieved when I started reading your 5reasons most people leave a church. Their billions of buildings called a Church, but so, so many are not founded or chosen by God. God doesn’t even dwell or ever reside in many of these so called churches. Just like he has not been given access to dwell in many people’s lives. No indwelling of Jesus Christ in youNo church… Because are we not the actual churchThe Bride of Jesus that He will come to take home one day?
Let us stop thinking our titles mean our status of importance to God. It does not! Every part of the body is significant for the body to function in its fullness to be whole. The body is out of whack if any part is messed up or lacking. Each part matters. The Body is not whole as long as…. A part is out of place and being used. We need each other to function and be whole. Blessings to you all. May God Heal our Land… After we get on one accord and have True repentance and become one body unified.
Preach on, brother. I spent many yrs. backsliding until God stripped away everything so that I had to pay attention. When I returned to the church. I noticed an alarming trend. That trend being that the church in many ways has started to model itself after the world. This is what has driven many like me away from the church and bbn into my Bible. It also also forced me to get closer to God in my personal life. People yearn for something out of the church that DIFFERENTIATES it from the fallen world we live in. Instead, what we are getting is a post modern, millenial, watered down version of Christianity that seeks to undermine so much of what we believe as Christisns until the church no longer looks like church, but a rock concert with a little infotainment thrown in, but not too much, or someone might be offended and not come back.
What offended me out of the church was a lack of fellowship, a worldly stance, mixed with modern day pastors who do more to stroke the egos of the peo ppl let than to hold a mirror up by way of the Word of God. I actually had a pastor try and get me to play guitar in the music ministry at the funeral of the church guitarists wife. No shame or scruples whatsoever.
People who want to criticize who are believers forget that they are part of the body also. We can develop a sense of pointing the finger at those that are the ones ministering, rather we should be looking at what the bible says about being part of the body. If one hurts we all hurt.
That being said, we are the trying to be a corporation rather believers believe what the bible says, in that Christ will build His church. Matt 16:18 They is always reasons on top of reasons why people leave, we must always look at ourselves and ask “am I really serving, worshiping you in Spirit and truth”?
Its sad to read through the comments and see everybody is really arguing and stating their opinions over everyone else. Christ loved us enough to what….but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men Phil 2.
Thank-you for your comment.
Hello everyone I’am a member of a church that has gone through countless challenges over the years and have seen many friends leave, I have also experienced being alone, rejected, talked about negatively, looked down on and many other things however, I remain in this church because God has placed me there and I choose to keep my focus on him not the storm which surrounds me, everyone has there reasons for leaving a church which is a choice we are imperfect people facing many challenges God knows what he’s doing. After reading all these great post from everyone I see his work being done God bless all of you
@ Faith: Praise God for your example. I am encouraged and will stay also.
Steve, your very last point “Might there be something wrong with us?” is the the question every church should be asking. It may be that a specific does not click with a person, or the congregation might be on the cold side where visitors or guests are concerned. A church has one chance to make a first impression. If someone does not want to return to the church, it is not the church’s place to criticize or judge. If someone has had a bad experience or impression of the church, will the pastor or members listen. A church that I used to go to would always tell me to “get over it”, “that’s your problem, or “you need to be more forgiving”. To me, those are valid reasons for leaving a church. Also, I don’t believe that people are leaving churches because they have a sense of entitlement. The expectation of treating people the way you would want people to treat you is more like a two-way street than an entitlement.
As a pianist, I was always told “Use your talent for the Lord”, beginning at age 11. I went on to get a music degree, and was told the same thing — use my talent FOR FREE. I felt as though that was all the church saw. If I missed a service, for whatever reason, I heard, “Where were you? We needed you !!!” Skilled musicians in the Bible got paid. I never hear preachers preach about that, but they always preach tithing.
I know this is way past date of original posting, but I just felt like commenting. I believe you make a good point and a valid one at that, but corporation verses the body of Christ is way too distant of a comparison to base a logical argument on. Thom states that there are other reasons for people leaving the church; he just believes that the main reason is a sense of entitlement, or better yet, selfishness. There is no all-encompassing statement to fully ascribe the reason for every individual who leaves the church. The root of all sin is, at its most basic, selfishness and the desire to be fulfilled. Corporations desire to fulfill consumers with things that make them say, “I couldn’t live without this product.” We know this to be completely false. Everyone has the capability to live without a new computer, and corporations are holistically self-centered; they wouldn’t survive if they weren’t. People do not, by any means, have the ability to live life to its fullest without Christ. While corporations are completely self-centered, Christianity is completely self-sacrificial. Complete opposites. Why, then, would you ask “what can we do for you?” when instead we should be showing them the answer to what church goers need, “What has Christ already done for you?”
We all feel entitled to things. People do leave the church because they prize entitlement over serving others. Churches do suck at showing the love of Christ sometimes. But, Jesus has said “it is finished,” and in that we can truly reach this humility you mentioned earlier at the foot of the cross, in full sub-missal to the all loving God. If we base our Church off of Microsofts marketing tools instead of God’s word then, and truly then, we are fundamentally flawed.
I think most people leave church because they no longer believe.
That was the reason I left (recently), and I was afraid to say so. I suspect others feel the same way.
But now that I am out, I feel so free!! I feel like the weight of the world was lifting off my shoulders. I have never been happier.
@ Ann: I am happy you feel better; you shouldn’t feel burdened. However, please consider following Jesus; please don’t give up on your faith in Jesus.
The post seems to blame the person leaving due to o an entitlement spirit. Probably true in some cases, but I doubt this is the root cause. Often it is the realisation that the church is so different from Jesus. It’s become a religious organisation or a private club, where only people of a certain category are welcomed. People are not leaving Jesus, they’re leaving Christless churches, often exemplified by its leadership..usually the pastor. Loveless, uncaring, control freaks are what people are leaving. Do wake up church. It’s you that are driving people away, not people leaving you.
Many church leaders seem to get defensive when a wrong cord is struck. That’s a lot of the problem today. Many educated Pastors today are no more than business leaders with big businesses called The Church, in order to fleece the sheep and pad their pockets! This is where most of Gods people are treated like a commodity, so Pastors can have careers. If every fringe benefit and big salaries were stripped away, how many Pastors or under shepherds would remain? This is a lot of why people leave a church. Its what sheep can do for the shepherd with how he runs his business, until sheep are fleeced to being bare, instead of what the shepherd does for the sheep. The sheep are desperate for shepherding. Instead they are being devoured by wolves. Jesus didn’t come to be served, but to serve His people. Most Pastors want want want instead of serve serve serve. Preaching on Sunday is not what Jesus had in mind.
The church does not want to take responsibility for things that is. People worship the pastor more than they do God.
Amen! Myself and my family left the church that my husband had attended for 40+ years because we refused to be led by a wicked shepherd that would use his power to hurt people instead of helping them, while he helped himself to anything he wanted. There is scripture in Jeremiah and others that speak of wicked men in the church fellowship. Gods people are to flee from them if they are not run off by standing elders and leaders. Not including preaching falsely. I prayed for Christ to open my eyes and show me His Truth and He did. More than I asked Him too. A lot of people are leaving, including myself, because there are more wolves in sheep’s clothing in our churches than there are Godly called men. We left to draw nearer to God and to protect our spiritual being that wicked leaders tried to destroy. Its very say but wolves are taking over our churches.
I agree that there is a lack of love in churches, not always the pastor. People are lonely and hurting and need Jesus! They need the word of God , NOT entertainment. The platform is cleared of the pulpit to make room for musicians.The music and sermons are contemporary and people are starving for God’s word. David Platt had the right idea Bible study and prayer for 6 hrs and people came. Why come to church to get entertained when you can get that at home.
What I miss about church is not that I feel entitled to this or that BUT I feel entitled to hear the pure word of God and sing hymns that honor Him instead of songs that entertain me!
Thank you for that comment. I try desperately to understand why it is that many Christians can’t seem to grasp the one key command Jesus required of us as belonging to Him. That is “Love.” It feels to me that people are so busy “doing church” that they are losing the concept of “love” in the church. You hear things like, “We want to increase the membership, spread the gospel…” There are so many reasons why church growth is sought after, and I agree people should come in, and hear the word, grow, learn, share… But, too many churches are just adding to the numbers. I understand church people can be a mixture of fruit and nuts (literally); however, they all belong to Christ. When we can really get that, I believe we’ve almost arrived. When someone is hurting, absent, or in a dark place in their lives; how much effort does it take to acknowledge or maybe even appoint someone to just offer a word of encouragement. Many pastors, department heads…don’t want to invest in the lives beyond their formal assignment. They often complete their assigned task, and they keep it moving. It’s the churches that completely ignore or perhaps even desert people in crisis that I see no evidence that Jesus is their driving force. If Jesus shared the parable of 1-lost sheep, or coin that was sought after, who are we that we can’t stop and at least consider our brother or sister in times of need? Nobody can do it all, but anyone can at least take a moment out to acknowledge one’s pain…If you are going to seek to continue adding to the church, you shouldn’t forget the key ingredient to maintain the church, and that is “Love.” If love draws, then love can maintain. If it is too much to ask that the church display the love of Christ in more than just preaching the word, receiving offerings… Then perhaps they shouldn’t refer to themselves as “the church” and go do something else. I’m just saying!
I agree, we aren’t supposed to be a corporation, were supposed to be a functional family. If a abused child grows up and passses abuse on to his or her children its a cycle and the church has become like that – worldly. A corporate model ran by a corporate head that exploits people until they are all used up. God is our Father and His son is our saviour, were to be brothers and sisters in Christ… sounds like a family unit and not a corperate widget producer to me.
I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. MC Swain, I pastored for over ten years, also led worship for thirteen. You have to address the needs of the flock. We are Shepherds still, are we not? If one of your sheep is in trouble spiritually or any other way you get to that sheep and minister life to it until it is healthy again. For Christ’s sake..love the sheep you have..we are there to Shepherd them, even to the point of laying down our lives. When they mature they can give back to the church.. But church leaders have got it completely backwards nowadays. It’s called FEED MY SHEEP.
Yes! This is my heart on this issue. Sheep leave the fold because they are being abused and starved! They have to leave to find a green pature and their shepherd that will feed them properly until they can freely be on their own to lead other sheep to their shepherd that will feed them. This is life or death for the sheep but wicked shepherds leave them hungry and wounded. Its so very very sad! Scripture speaks of this clearly but churches ignore these passages or blame other churches but not themselves. Please don’t underestimate the power of God when He calls His own sheep away from wickedness that has crept in unaware. That what happened to me and my family.
Agreed. There IS something wrong with the many churches. I came from Holiness and other related backgrounds where members showed love and an earnest desire to help the others in the Body of Christ. When I left and came to the grace churches, I was open to accept others as my brothers and sisters in Christ. However, as the 3 years went on, I was horrified at the huge laxness a majority of the members had. Nobody in one church wanted or even asked me to their homes for fellowship. And when I would give Scriptures or other gifts to them, as led by the Holy Spirit, they would either give the gift to someone else ad avoid me, or they would just give it back a short time later to which I refused. I do not take back gifts because where I come from, it’s an insult. I discovered many who were at church, especially bigger churches, where they were Sunday Only Christians who were there just to dip their big toe in the water and call it a day. One song leader was full of himself when an elderly brother told him, kindly, that the music decibals were too loud. The son g leader said that “loud music was Scriptural”. The elderly brother said there was no Scriptural basis for playing loud – overly loud music. The song leader ignored him and kept the format “as is”. One of the other pastors also was full of himself and shutting down some elderly women who simply “got in his way”. I met the man myself and I know, first hand, a carnal spirit when I see one. Yet the lead pastor doesn’t want to hear anything negative. Excuse me, but there “is” such as thing as “constructive criticism”. I’m not saying I feel “entitled” for anything. When a number of churches have a majority of cold, formal and distant member within a 90% range, we have a serious problem. Yet such a problem is ot addressed over the pulpit because “nobody wants to be criticized or ‘told’ what to do”. And more often than, men like myself are blamed instead of the church saying “The problem is not with him but is with US.” Just yesterday I attended a church function where I tried to be friendly with someone and they were outright rude. They and their relatives snubbed me and walked away. By this point I thought to myself that THIS was the straw that broke the camel’s back and that I was in a country club instead of a growing church. Now a small 5% range of believers are genuine but there is a very heavy spirit on the rest of them. And it’s quite thick. Now I know we are supposed to go to church to fellowship with God first and foremost and the Bible tells us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. The latter these days is becoming an increasingly discouraging problem. When a majority of the brothers and sisters are cold, formal, distant and un-accepting, this can become a snare. The Scripture I can use is that “if they receive you not, dust the Sands off of your feet and move on.” Many members of the church I attend are NOT used to gift giving such as Scriptures, cd’s or dvd’s. Many and many of them are not used to or interested in being prayed for out of the blue. Some are but only a 5% range. Does not the Scriptures also command and/or caution us NOT to act as stumbling blocks to one another. Well, there are major flurries of cold, dry, formal and distant people where I attend that seem to be stumbling blocks to genuine. No. Men like myself are tired of being singled out as either “disgruntled perfectionists with bones to pick”. This tells me that not only is there a heavy spirit of denial, but there are also spirits engaging in “cover ups”. These churches forget another they must seriously consider: Jesus was condemned and made out to be a lunatic by who – – the organized religious institutions. Many churches, especially the one I’m in grieves the Holy Spirit. It is in desperate need of a revival. Now there ARE some good qualities in this church with a variety of programs – but 90% of the people are weeds. I’m sorry. How could THAT not ACT as a Cancer and eventual stumbling block if any.. Brethren in Christ, I await your answers for are we not to be irons sharpening irons? Well, with the church I have been in for almost a year now, there are no irons sharpening mine – yet. Instead, they are “dulling my iron”. I would say this is a Code Red Alert in many churches. After a latest incident with a cold, distant and formal member, I am seriously considering leaving the grace movement and going back to the Holiness movement. At least over there, they have conduct, order and doctrine. And many of the people show what they believe. I apologize to you all ad to God for sounding a bit frustrated. I am going to seriously pray over this matter. Just my take on all of this.
Correction: I said I was seriously considering leaving the grace movement. That was a tad hasty. I think I will simply leave the church I’m in now, for it is becoming more of a hindrance. Sure, they have the programs and organization but not the people. A small 5 to 10% range of genuine believers are not enough for me to stay and grow. Sorry.
“When a majority of the brothers and sisters are cold, formal, distant and un-accepting”
This doesn’t sound like they have a true love for each other and it sounds like they already fail the test in 1 John. This is why I believe many, if not most, people who think they are saved are not. Most people who believe they are believers do so because they prayed a prayer one time in their life and got baptized. Not only have they not shown any fruit in their life they have no conversion testimony to speak of. People are suppose to examine and test themselves.
I agree with you. But the church does not want to look at the wrong thing they’re doing. If you even disagree a little they rather kick you out instead of investigating what is really going on.
I agree Steve. I just read a post from my pastor to a woman who has had a migraine for 3 days and he said come to church on Sunday and be anointed with oil. It’s only Monday… Let her suffer for a week?
You hit the nail on the head!
I couldn’t agree more!
Entitlement mentality? Really that’s funny when one considers the fact that I have all but begged the Pastor and his wife to be allowed to volunteer at whatever is needed!! All I want to do is serve, but almost am never asked even after making it very clear that anything that is needed just ask. Right now in our small 65 member church we have a Pastor and 5 Elders (all men of course). When any idea is brought up by any members to help grow the church, help save money or even help bring in money the ideas are immediately shot down. Now we are accused of being gossiping, hateful trouble makers for having the nerve to share our feelings with each other. This is how our Pastor reacted when one member told him how many members where feeling. Sorry sir I think in our case it is the Pastor that suffers from the Entitled mentality… But I most certainly agree with your study and the main reason why folks leave a church…
I am in the same boat as you. They will not allow me to serve. I have this amazing idea that could bring millions to Christ, but I can get no help from church. I evangelize on my own and bring about 15 people to the Lord per week. I wanted to work with our missions department, but they do not return calls. I presented it to several pastors and 1 likes it but it has to be approved by a committee and 9 times out of 10 a committee will say no. The church itself is a country club. The members want a body of Christ to build God’s Kingdom. Most churches are too busy building their own personal exclusive kingdom.
I completely agree. Music is important. Some music in church is outright Satanic. What is wrong with people desiring a real community that cares? When my mom died and no one really did anything, I knew that this was not the family I wanted. The church itself is an exclusive Country Club and that is why people leave. When I have a real problem, I stay away from church. Church should be the first place I go. But instead of getting loving concern or living water, I get self- righteous filthy rags filled with dirty water.
I agree Dr.Steve, I am a new Christian ,27 yrs old, and it’s hard to find a church where I can grow spiritually, and biblically, some churches I’ve attended provide discipleship, or group meetings ,but it’s way too far a drive (not located in church premises), or, there’s no day care, ect. Other churches don’t have
much happening . Another thing is that, some leaders or members only look at me as a ( young, single mom) instead of trying to get to know “me”, they ask how I get my bills paid,
or ask very very personal and at times uncomfortable
questions. I just want
to find a church where I’m accepted
and where I can grow ,bc in my heart, I know that I want
to give back, and I want
God to some day use me in church community.
I agree 1000%. As a former pastor who constantly held onto the idea that people who leave are the ones with the problems, I can now say that such a attitude is a self-delusion motivated by self-preservation instead of wisdom. And almost everything I see online written by people in full-time ministry falls into the same trap. I would love to see what a minister has to say about it who does not accept pay from the congregation. Would we even encourage such a thing anymore?
I can respectfully see your line of thought however the Church is not a “worldly minded “ place and is not to be a carnal minded hideout for the unsatified member. When a person can see that the church or the Lord Jesus owes them nothing, then they will be able to be taught and lead into being a disciple of Jesus Christ. In today’s times it seems that most of society have abandoned the need for prayer and reading the Word of the Lord which automatically breaks down sanctification all together. You cannot see the Kingdom of God without being born again,maybe some places are trying to up the number on the registry rather than winning souls!
Agreed! And if it a re occurring issue, one would think the leaders need some
Soul searching! And please explain to me where church membership is talked about in the Bible??? I don’t see it!
1 Corinthians 12:24-27:
Instead, God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the less honorable, 25 so that there would be no division in the body, but that the members would have the same concern for each other. 26 So if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and individual members of it.”
I agree! Expecting something from your congregation that you are not modeling.. ie. SERVANT LEADERSHIP…you will not teach many. Do what we say and not what we do rarely works.
Agree. I’ve heard many sermons picking on the congregation for being ‘entitled’ or ‘wanting served’ or ‘putting personal preferences over commitment to Christ’ (usually as a prelude to asking the congregation to give more money or serve on the greet-team.) Rarely do I encounter a church group whose leadership is willing to confront real problems in how they do things.
Certainly, there are churchgoers who coast and don’t get involved. But when those problems are systematic it often has to do with leadership:
– Not giving opportunity to serve (e.g. certain ministries everyone is encouraged to serve in, like volunteering with nursery or being on the greet team, but many ministries are near impossible to serve in unless you have connections with someone in leadership)
– Certain gifts not being ‘allowed’ (problem with many cessationist churches, or churches that poo-poo discernment and knowledge in favor of hospitality)
– Gifts being used incorrectly leading to studies and services not being edifying (everyone babbling in glossolalia at once, for example)
– The church not engaging in any form of discipleship, but keeping services and classes very basic
– The church diving deep into intellectual study and history but not motivating listeners to apply it
– No networks of accountability within the church
– Leadership in the church treating everyone else as if it is their job to serve and finance the leaderships many vacations, rather than the leadership’s job to equip the saints for ministry
Etc. Stagnant members are a problem, but considering ‘entitled members’ the biggest problem is unfair.
The church is not microsoft and Bill Gates is not worshiped there. Too many churches have become like a business and only deepened the entitlement problem.In your example giving should be in the form of entrance fee and the church be all paid staff.
Although, Jesus allowed people to walk away on more than one occasion. Wgen the rich young ruler walked away, Jesus didn’t go afer him and say, “how can I change to make this better for you?” There was another instance when a large number of peopleleft and stopped following Jesus and he turned to the disciples and asked if they were going to leave too(to which Peter replied,
“Where shall we go?”
It is certainly important to regularly engage in introspective self examination (asking God if there is any offensive thing in our own hearts/lives), but if the Bible is being followed and preached properly, and people leave, then I suspect it may be a case of what is mentioned in 1 John, (if they were truly of us they would not have left, but by leaving, they show that they were not of us)
I went to this church for 28 yrs. Realized pastor was taking all tithes for his self and wife. He leaves the church nothing. Right now he has 4 members. Eight of left. No money to fix church up. The assembly told pastors they could take a salary or get all tithes from church, so for 28 yrs., he gets all tithes. Nothing is left to fix up church
.What do you suggest?
Steven, You are SO right!! Thank you for your response and ditto to those who agreed with him!
Several people in this thread stated that a church and corporation cannot be compared. The corporation focus is “customer experience” – even hospitals now have this mission. The ‘research question’ stated here is, “why are people leaving?” and the pastor blamed and judged the people saying the problem is their attitude of entitlement. Steve’s response is on-target! It’s about LISTENING to learn from others – to hear them, rather than just brushing them off, naming a character flaw to invalidate them. The comparison Steve is making is about communication and actually caring about the people enough to hear their concerns so they will feel cared for enough to stay- ie compassion, kindness, love,…those spiritual qualities – remember those? That’s what I’m hearing in some of the examples listed by the original poster – the people didn’t feel cared about or included. Look beyond what might appear petty to you to hear the hurt.
People who approach church are very vulnerable. They might have had a bad experience before visiting, or while being a part of your church! There are books by Christian authors which encourage church-goers to be especially vulnerable when interacting with others in church – this is not usually safe! There is a higher concentration of mentally ill, sex addicts, controllers, exploiters, etc gathering in churches.
I have been looking for a church for 2 years and have been praying over a certain church as a possibility to go regularly. I pulled away last year, after the brand new women’s leader made a very inappropriate comment criticizing another woman who had just opened up to share something deeply personal – her criticism showed a very warped point of view and lack of education. I was appalled that she would be inflicting herself onto others in a leadership position. I decided to keep looking for a new church (new to the area). I recently started to re-consider this same church, thinking I would just avoid the women’s studies. While in the WORKPLACE, a medical professional approached me and vomited his mental problems all over me. He confessed that he is a sex addict, who is leaving the medical field to become a minister at this particular church – the senior pastor thinks he would be perfect to help women there who are involved with men like him! I had never spoken to him before, except to say hello, in passing, a couple of times, and here he was cornering me to listen to this for about 30 minutes, and he even said that “if anyone feels uncomfortable hearing this, that is God convicting them.” Thanking God for the answer to prayer, warning me off this church! This element is what I am seeing so much in churches and repels me.
Yes, we are all sinners, but not all of us are walking in certain sins or think of the sin as a license to manipulate others. Since we are all human, it’s important not to set each other and the congregation up for failure. My daughter’s youth minister is now in prison for sexually abusing several girls who were in her group. He was newly married to a stunning physician. I had several ministers make passes at me over the years, and even more congregates try to pry into my personal life, give unwanted advice, twist scriptures to manipulate, etc (talk about “entitlement”!). Currently, in my city, there is a well-known “ministry” leader who tells people how to vote and literally shames them and tells them they are disobeying God if they don’t support his candidate – that’s not even legal and is so unethical it turns my stomach!
These are just a few of my more recent experiences with churches, why left churches, and why I may never go again. Today, each time I approach a church, I realize that I will likely deal with this insanity again and ask myself why I am putting myself in that situation.
So many in the church have very unhealthy boundaries and that trend appears to be growing and is even fueled by leaders – churches are no longer safe places and are rarely even spiritual places, anymore. The church used to be a place of love – a sanctuary for refuge (spiritually and physically).
Although I desperately want to be part of a church, lately I have been coming to terms that I might never return. I’ve talked with a few friends who see the crisis that the church is currently in, but believe that most church leaders and congregates are completely blind to it.
You are on target. Pointing fingers is not an answer. It is true that some people are takers, but I believe most Christians are givers. So if a giving person feels unheard, the Pastor needs to listen. These are lead-sheep are should be his/her greatest asset.
By comparing consumers of corporate products to Saints being equipped for works of service, you have beautiful lt illustrated the authors point.
Amen ! And instead of trying to find new members to replace those who left. Why not find out why their leaving and how about those the church has hurt and cast out.
Why the body of Christ thinks they need to kill their hurt and wounded , I will never understand.
Their are so many wounded Christians walking around in this world who truely love the Lord but their fed up with the church and its programs.
What happened to the praying , Jesus seeking lifting up that all men would be drawn unto him.
The church has lost the power of God’s spirit directing its leaders.
Most pastors now days don’t read the Bible and pray for a word from God for their flock. They get their messages off the internet.
Give us back the old time man of God ! Who loved the Lord and was taught by the Holy Spirit .
The distinction here is that church members are to be servants of Christ, not consumers of a “Christian product.”
People are human beings, therefore they ARE entitled to certain things (human rights, happiness, love etc). The entitlement mindset is what drives people to succeed and creates great leaders and unique individuals. What is the point in working hard if you are not going to get anything in the end. Religion states that you will have an enjoyable afterlife and to not be to concerned about this one. Well I’m sorry, this is the only life we are completely sure we will have so why not make the most out of it? Why not become the best you that you can be? Why not see each other as equal but with different talents and unique developments? For example when someone says “I was born to play music” that is a sense of entitlement that helps them continue. Of course this mindset can get out of control, but so can any other mindset. Church is about changing people, not just bad people but good people as well. They put it into your head that you are a broken sinner who is evil from birth. Leaving the church to prove two things 1: Babies do evil things and 2: God is real outside of evidence. Question two is why I left, they have never given any evidence outside of “testimony”. So yeah go ahead and put the blame on the people, try and change them and morph them into what you want so that they stay. This sounds like the making of a cult to me. Maybe they are leaving because they feel that the bible is just a story. Oh and “shutting the backdoor” by which people are trying to escape sounds like forced religion to me. I will do everything I can to get people OUT of a church that thinks this way. I can only hope more people can escape so that they may be able to learn how to think for themselves and do so freely. How sad the world will be if we are all the same. Long live diversity.
You made some good points Joshua…..but you are missing one supernatural truth! “You must be born again” Said Jesus! When you have the Spirit of Christ guess what you have a ‘servant heart’ and you follow your Lord in life and practice! It’s really not that complicated! God is love and in Him is no darkness at all …… when we follow Him through His Spirit’s leading, we grow up and know how to live a life of ‘service’ to Him and His people …. wherever they may be! Our innermost being sings of the Joy of the Lord and our lives are testimonies of His love and grace operating there-in! Testimony is powerful …. because naturally we don’t have a servant heart which is a life-style but when we are born again this is a life-style! God bless you to realize His amazing Grace and Love! Regards Carmel Sherwood
Carmel,
Well said! God’s grace isn’t just about receiving us as sinners. God’s grace transforms us from what we used to be into something radically different! Apart from that transformative work, grace would be empty. God’s Spirit invades our lives, transforms our minds, resurrects our hearts, and makes us living sacrifices empowered to love God supremely and other sacrificially.
Anything less than that misses the mark of the gospel!
if the goal of a Church is that its people have to be forced or intimidated into ‘staying’, then said ‘Church’ is dying from something more serious than the departure of its members
Look deeper . . . what would cause leaders of such a Church to inflict ‘discipline’ that involves abuse ? . . . find THAT darkness and eliminate it, and such a Church will be able to come back into the light of Christ again
I agree with the sentiment of this comment yet there also seems to be a spirit of control that permeates these churches. We must remember that the Church is the body and not the establishment itself. The pastor is the leader – hence he should lead by example. Pastors are stretched thin, I know, however mentoring and showing enthusiastic interest in members who come to serve and desire to grow, should come first and foremost when it comes to this topic.
Nothing is more deflating than earnestly desiring to be a part of the church and serve in a manner you have interest, and being excluded or ignored. This is where the politics often come into play; the cliques, or fiefdoms snuff out any spark that begins to shimmer.
Often when the discouraged member attempts to explain or address the issue, they are met with promises of inclusion. Yet, most often the over-stretched Pastors have insufficient time to address the fundamental issues that lay just beneath the façade of “bless your heart brother or sister”.
Unfortunately when this confused and bewildered member decides to move on, they are quickly bombarded with Biblical legality – hurled in harsh undertones. “You should consult the elders.” “You are to subjugate yourself to the Church.” “If you don’t faithfully attend our Church then it is doubtful you are Christian.” “When are you going to become the spiritual leader you should be?” “You should be serving and not complaining.” Wow, even as I put this into words, it strikes me just how condemning and controlling these comments sound.
I have personally experienced this and know that I would rather watch a seedy televangelist who cannot damage me from afar, than to continue to subject myself and my family to the hints of cultish theater as mentioned above.
Joshua – I think one particular point you made about churches only having evidence in “testimony” and no other way is unfortunate that you were not able to have more intellectual conversations about faith with people. I myself had a professor in college (who is a Christian), mention that there is no total “evidence” for faith (specifically Christianity…. it is a lot of story/testimony). He did explain that we can have good reasons for faith though. [which I found to be intellectually helpful] He went through Biblical & historical reliability, as well as how science & Christianity do not negate each other. He also went into the philosophical premise that we have faith in many things. (ie faith in the electrical processes of a car, that it will most likely start. we could also call it belief, trust… maybe just thought). But, people generally put trust or belief into at least something in their life. Sometimes it’s themselves and sometimes apart from themselves of course. And we have no “evidence” to believe ourselves either, but often times, we do… It’s interesting to me. It’s not as if our logic is without fault.
Also, I think humans are made to think & value diversity! And absolutely not trap anyone in a church. SCARYYYYY. I just left a great church myself, but was disappointed about the lack of willingness to have conversations about justice & society – in an intellectual and non-exclusionary way. I’ve found a few in my search that are doing these things though.
The best to you.
This article seems oversimplified. There’s usually a long story and many events behind a statement, “I left my church because…….”
I know of a young man who served at church, faithfully, every Sunday. Years later, I ran into him. He had fallen away. Why didn’t anyone reach out to him? Did they assume he changed churches? If he had, so what? He had served there faithfully for years, so he deserved their care and their concern. This young man always went above and beyond. He loved the Lord and those he ministered to. But, did the church value him? Did they give him the worth of a “sheep”? No. Not even the worth of a sheep. Someone could have asked him to lunch; asked if he’d like to be mentored; or asked him to help with a project. But, he left and no one bothered.
Others I know have been through the same thing. The church leaders may say, “I don’t want to pry.” But, if their horse or dog or cat went missing, they’d scour the land, hang up “missing” flyers, and call every pound within 10 sq miles to find that animal. The shepherds need to stop worrying about offending or prying, get out there and search. And if they’re too busy, find others who can help. Most everyone wants to help. But, when you think they’re just a ‘pew warmer’, you’ve judged them. Sometimes, all you need to say is, “We need your help. Can you help?”
At my church of over 4,000 members, I recommended a song, and a few weeks later, it was shared with the entire congregation. When I heard it, my heart soared with praise to God, and the church was blessed. Every time they sang that song, I could sense the church fill with God’s presence. Maybe some worship leaders need to loosening up and realize that maybe God does want to bless the congregation with a song outside their regular repertoire?
One church a friend attended, the pastor was always gone. His first love was music, so, he’d leave town to perform. In his stead, he appointed someone to teach. But the person he appointed was a pretty new believer. The pastor was not only shirking on his responsibilities, but, he put a new person in charge, which Paul strictly forbid, and his flock was dying of starvation, and didn’t have the leadership they needed and deserved. They stayed, but they suffered. Who was acting entitled here?
My brother attended a church that was trying to raise money for a new building. Every Sunday, the priest spent his entire sermon time asking for money. Guilting people into giving. My brother was on the highway to hell, and in dire need of hearing the word of God, but, all he heard was, “GIVE!” If the priest had given out God’s word, the church would have grown, and they would have raised enough money, naturally, for the project. But, fact is, the building was only about 30 years old, and it didn’t seem like they were outgrowing the facility. So, maybe this was more of a “want”, than a “need”? In my area, a lot of churches meet in schools. It reduces the overhead, but still provides a reasonable location to meet.
I go to a large church. I’ve tried to join small studies, but typically, when I call for information, no one calls me back. For all I know, the study no longer meets, but, without a call, what am I supposed to assume? “I guess they’re extremely busy? They picked up my voice message at 2am and forgot?” No. I usually figure, “Oh, wow, they don’t want me.” Or “Oh, wow, they could care less about my spiritual welfare.” Am I wrong? Acting entitled? Or just hurt?
“No one from my church visited me.” – What’s the story behind it? Were they ill? Had they called the church for help and no one responded? How many times did they call? I think too many times, churches need more office and pastoral staff to ensure the place runs smoothly and no one falls between the cracks. But, instead, they talk about bringing in more church members. Why not ensure you’re adequately caring for your flock, first?
Many people give 3-10% of their income to the church. What is the church supposed to do with that money? Care for the pastor, the staff and the building. Then, help needy church members, tithe to ministries, assist missionaries, help the persecuted church, assist pro-life ministries that help girls in their community, etc.
Love is not a ‘country club benefit’. And if the church is missing it on this one, they may as well close their doors.
I agree that many in the church need to learn what it is to be a servant, however, many of us would serve if leaders would ask. If leaders would help assess our gifts, our strengths, and say, “Hey, would you like to help out here?” Or “How would you like to help out? What’s in your heart?”, they’d likely find that a large portion of their congregation is willing and able to serve. But, we need to remember that mothers are some of the most sleep-deprived, over-worked people on the planet. If they can’t serve, don’t put them on a guilt trip.
I’m all for explaining the biblical meaning of the church. But, do a thorough search of the scriptures. Using scripture to just marginalize believers isn’t going to help anyone.
Mentoring is great. Yeah. It takes time. But, there are people who would love to help. Many seniors feel their life has no meaning. They’re just waiting for the grave. They could be filled with a greater sense of purpose, and younger people who are in grave need of support and guidance could be spared from divorce, falling away, and delivered from addictions.
A couple of churches I attended had great training. They offered seasonal or weekly classes, so they were never lacking volunteers. Others churches express they need help.
I prefer to leave the back door open. If someone comes to God’s house expecting some kind of magic from a group of humans they maybe should look at the bar crowd, where everyone knows their name including the police. I was in the back door gang until the pastor said, “You want friends be friendly. You want help be helpful. You want people to reach out, reach out with your own arms.” I used to warm a seat then hit the street. I started to put out a little bit of effort and found a gift is something for which nothing is expected in return. Until the church shopper puts away the poor me mirror the dack door will always need a coat of paint on the inside. Why do the cry babies have to get leprosy before they really get a hold of God ??? How about special needs ? You would have greater success with a cricket farm than a special needs program. OH, am I too harsh or are my Sunday shoes deteriorating from exposure to the tears of self centered cry babies?
thom really enjoyed your post here. i’ve been a minister at a small church as a minister and a elder. we went through a pastor resigning. and another preacher wanting the job. along with another one. it was not a easy time in the chruch. i think as men in leadership we all fail to many times. now there is a new pastor and not much leadership. i feel like i have no surport them any of them. so i feel now it’s time for me to move on. i’ve pray about it. and god has given me peace about it. i don’t think i’m giving up. i’m moving on.but my leaving the chruch on a good note.not blaming any one but myself for not being a better shower of gods love. thanks for your post it was a blessing to me,minister lee montgomery
Blessings to you Lee.
Please capitalize God when you are writing
There you go. Good job pastor bennett! You have given and accurate anecdotal example if why people are leaving the church. Because of crusty old attitudes like that. Of course God should be capitalized. But the writer if that post was obviously using very informal typing techniques. He didn’t capitalize anything. What if I told you I was one of the chosen people of Hebrew heritage and that I was offended that you even wrote the name of Elohim. Would you even get that reference? Bet you can’t show me a growing and vibrant church under your care! Just quit being crotchety silly.
There you go….go job Rabbi. You have given an accurate anecdotal example of why people are leaving the church. Because of young millennial attitudes like that. Of course god should be capitalized. But the writer of that post may not understand things the way you or I do. What if I told you……that many find it offensive in the church today because people on both sides point their crotchety or millennial little fingers at each other instead of at themselves, and we are sick of watching it. What if I told you……that a vibrant church has nothing to do with a ‘movement’, or a feeling. Just quit being so super spiritual, and try to have purpose in your life….oh what is purpose? try to keep from embarrassing God for 10 minutes at a time. See if You can accomplish that.
To those making excuses about not capitalizing God when writing. Why would anyone not take the time to capitalize God when they write a comment, or an article or anything? First of all, I’ve seen people in comment sections that will capitalize the names of problem people in their lives (their enemies) and yet spell God with a small g. I’ve seen those that will capitalize their friends names, their acquaintances names and their own names and yet spell God with a small g. Who doesn’t have time to Capitalize God?This is not legalistic; no one hates legalism more than I do. This trend of minimizing the name of God for convenience shows an attitude. God is not some home-boy or peer, He is GOD!
He deserve respect and honor. And that includes how we write HIS NAME. Remember He said to not take His name in vain……that means more than using His name in profanity, that means taking his name lightly. If you are too busy to give God honor in everything including writing His name, then you are simply TOO busy, and you shouldn’t be taking time to write comments on articles. This is one place where, if you are going to comment, spell everything you want with small letters, but give God the honor due to Him. And by the way, I am not a pastor or a preacher or a church leader, I am a middle aged woman who has been hurt by a certain church deeply, but God is healing me and I am so grateful to Him. I will not hold back the honor due to God because of what happened to me.
I know that this article is years old, but I think that my brain almost exploded over the responses to Pastor Lee’s post and the lack of capitalization of God.
Please keep in mind that many people are still not computer savvy and not be the best typists, especially those who have not grown up with the technology that we have today. Note that Pastor Lee’s comment was lacking capitalization throughout the whole paragraph. To me that indicates someone who may not be adept with typing or and not, as people seem to feel, lazy or disrespectful of God.
Sigh… That is the type of nonsense that turns people off from church. Instead to taking the time to understand people and their background, Christians automatically criticize and jump to conclusions.
Pastor Lee shared his pain and struggle and we jump on the lack of capitalization of God. SMH.
Pastor Lee, if you are still following this thread, I hope that you are doing well and have found comfort in that church or a new church.
Amen! God is not interested in the Pharisee spirit. I’m sure He could care less about capitalizing His name. He is concerned about the heart and our spiritual lives, not the letter of the law.
Lee,
Love to hear your thoughts, ideas and insight from that experience of multiple pastors after yours resigned. Is there anything you know now that you wish you’d have known then?
I have had several churches turn their back on me. When I was younger, it was because I had long hair. Later, I had a very painful divorce and when I called my pastor he just told me to let her go. She moved to another church, started seeing another sunday school teacher who was married and they said and did nothing. No matter how much I tried to reach out to her pastor, to reconcile with her she just wouldn’t listen. The irony is that she came back two years later only to leave me again after a month and go right back to this married man. I am hurt, confused, lost and feel betrayed. And the church remains silent on the matter. My faith has been crushed and I feel as if God has abandoned me no matter how hard I pray.
My husband I and went apart approximately 20 years ago. The divorce decree stipulate he pay child support. he never did. I complained to his pastor and my complain fell on deaf ears. Eventually he remarry and went on to make a new family. Our children are now full grown adults. The child support our children should have been getting and will never get is now going to his new found family. God would now have it that we are all at the same church. I don’t see neither my ex-husband nor his wife as my enemy. But it is a challenge for me. God has given me strength to overcome all the obstacles. The church doesn’t really address these things. Trust in God to see you through. The best years of your life is yet to come. God has not abandoned you. Hold on to his hands and allow Him to work out His purpose for your life.
Dear Fredo, unfortunately I think what’s happening is something that’s hard to hear. I think your pastor was right in saying let her go, especially since you describe her behavior. You, your Pastor, not even God will go against her free will to make her stay. We all have free will and God allows us to choose. She made her choice. It’s hard to hear that you have to let someone go and move on, but it happens. Now what God WILL do is emotionally heal you, strengthen you, help you overcome the hurt and help you find someone who is much better and deserving of you. He will teach us how to make better decisions in choosing mates if need be. However, your situation is not the churches fault. All they can do, at best, is offer advice, prayer and a comforting word. Be blessed.
Unfortunately, there are many needy people in the world; some with very complicated problem situations involving emotional and physical issues leading to a lifetime of baggage; some requiring professional help.
Most churches do their best, but it is very unfair to walk into a church and dump a lifetime of problems into a pastor or elders lap and expect them to fix it for you….like…. right this minute. And in many cases some words of encouragement and prayer is the best that can be offered.
Perhaps a biblically centered approach would help with your dilemma?!?
God doesn’t give you anything you can’t handle…and if these “lifetime of baggage” people appear at your door, who are you to turn them away? And what right has God given you to do so? And is encouragement and prayer really the best you can do? I challenge anyone on that.
Perhaps a biblically centered approach would help with your dilemma?!?
God doesn’t give you anything you can’t handle…and if these “lifetime of baggage” people appear at your door, who are you to turn them away? And what right has God given you to do so? And is encouragement and prayer really the best you can do? I challenge anyone on that.
Very good point!
Sometimes we tend to forget that the church is hospital for the sick……not a hotel for the saints.
Jesus said….”it’s not the well that needs healed”.
very comforting words.I agree with you and I do believe DAT frado should move on and that God has a better plan for him….will like to know more about u and your faith in Jesus Christ.
Actually, part of that is his churches fault. They could have easily not allowed her to attend – which is the Biblical response to someone who refuses to repent of sin. If she was flirting with a married man, and the church knew of this and was allowing it, and was letting that man continue to *teach* there is a huge problem.
When Hosea’s wife returned to prostitution, God didn’t tell him to ‘let her go’ but to seek her out and redeem her. When God’s people turned away after other gods and God ‘divorced’ Israel for her promiscuity in this way, God still sought after her to reconcile.
It’s a *huge* problem in the church when anyone, divorcee or not, is allowed to blatantly flaunt sexual sin meanwhile those who are interested in reconciliation are told to just forget about it.
Let’s not forget that we are supposed to reconcile with our brethren – spouses or not. This takes priority even over ‘giving gifts’ at the altar (e.g. offerings or service.) While that process of reconciliation may or may not end in a new marriage, if there is anything still painful between two brothers/sisters in Christ the church should be helping them work it out and holding them accountable to working it out – not just dismissing it as impossible.
First of all my beloved brother Fredo, Never allow anything that anyone see is or anything that you may go through Put you in a state of mind way you ever believe that God has abandoned you. He has not.
Secondly, Please Do not think that it is God’s will That these things are taking place in your life. Our Heavenly Father gave us a something that maybe we could have done without. Smile. He gave us, “FREE WILL”. He gave us the right to choose The path and direction we desire to travel. The power to choose can sometimes be a dangerous thing.
I agree with what Pastor Sam says… free will chosen may not always be God’s will. God gave each person free will… do choose God’s way… or our own selfishways. Yes, things happen for a reason, but sometimes that reason is because someone did not choose God’s will.
But, God will never abandon you… we need only to open the door and invite Him into our hearts… and mind (reading His Holy Word… search the scriptures). “… they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily,” (Acts. 17:11)
God is always there for us.
I’m not condemning anyone who are going through this moment of suffering. But brother, you have to understand that God has never abandon you, God never abandon his children who love him and trust him and wait for him, and for sure he heard your prayer. God has seen your hurt, and if God has been silent is because he know better. You have to ask yourself, what the bible says about this matter and do follow it and do them. God has giving us the word for us to know what we must do in a situation like this. I can tell you that you no matter how much you love her, if she is not willing to love you back there nothing you will be able to do about it , love can’t be force on a person, love come and it is a voluntary love without any pressure. what you need to do is to put your mind and trust in God. The bible says, seek first the Kingdom of God and his Righteousness and then he will give you the desire of your heart. When something was not meant to be there nothing you can do to change that, but God always has the best things for you and when you never expecting you will rejoice so much on how good it was to wait on the Lord. Because everything that the Lord God gives to us are good and last long. Trust him he will never fail you. God bless brother.
Do not lose faith in God. Remember people and God are not the same. The reality is that most churches are not up to par.
It’s not yawls Church it Jesus is the head of the church you just own the building that the Church gathers at. So to sound so mean just have to say what the Word of The Lord says.
GODS CHURCH. Thank you You just own the building.
I feel we are living in the last days. But I do not understand Christian churches who have 3 services on a Sunday morning service. But no Sunday night services at all. There are more and more people who have to work on a Saturday/Sunday morning like [ 6 to 2] [7 to 3 ] [8 to 4 ]. A lot of those people have no choice. It’s like there already wearing the mark of the beast. I have heard of pastors say we can’t because of no money funds. Small group meetings I am in an agreement of. But Sunday night service your not going to make any excuses. I find my pastor is more concern who’s going to win the Sunday Football Super Bowl.
Yes, JESUS said “make disciples” which is mentoring. I preach that you can not only BRING the word and expect it to transform people. The LORD prepares a table and also makes us to lie down in a place of rich sustenance. We must both bring the word as well as bring the feeble TO the table to dine. Make certain people are getting what’s being shared, empathetic ministry, which is all true ministry could ever be (empathetic). Many churches fail or struggle because they refuse to fix systems that are not user-friendly.
My family has recently left a church after 9 1/2 years. 2 years ago we got a new pastor. This has not been an easy decision. I truly did feel like our pastor wasn’t pastoring us. I hope and pray I don’t have a “entitlement ” attitude. I went to my pastor a couple of different times and could not even get counsel or prayer offered from him. Once I told him I was backsliding and needed some help. He replied, ” hang in there it happens.” I let it go and just started seeking more of God, things got better. During a church revival I went forward and spoke with my pastor during invitation. I told him God was speaking to me about serving in the church again and I was passionate about seeking lost people and going out visiting lost people. His reply, ” that’s great” no prayer offered or follow up. I let that go. Then my mother in-law lay dying in hospital for 4 days and he never visited. We are a small southern baptist church of about 135 active members and the pastor speaks of visiting dying family members often.
I understand that we should not just get mad and leave , but when pastors continually do not shepherd the flock, don’t you think we have to move on sometimes? i have beat myself up and keep thinking it is something I did to make him not want to help our family. This has been a heartbreaking thing for us.
Our church seems to be experiencing problems. Some of the members who sought counsel from 1 or more of the assistant pastors about personal issues in their lives later heard about their conversations with the pastors from other staff members. It appears that the staff members are gossiping about what some members have confided in. When one of the affected members brought this up to the Senior Pastor, he in a sense dismissed her and later suggested she might want to find another church. Gossip is harmful and even toxic when the church staff is engaging in it and repeating what should be confidential. How to stop this?
Could it be quite possibly that you seen good results with one on one mentoring because you took the time to share the gospel of love? I mean how does the church (people) expect to show gods love outside of the church when they have a hard time showing it in the church. This article of entitlement and lack of servitude being the reason just shows how much church has lost its way. It’s become a institution that has actually taken people out of it. It becomes more of a social club with #’s and baptisms judging the health of the church. Come on people (church)wake up! Show the gospel of love to your brother and sisters in christ by going to those people and connecting. Then we can go outside and show that same gospel of love to our neighbors.
I agree with your comment so much. It is hard to stay in a community that does not seem to care. Churches are made up of broken people who have created broken systems. We all must show mercy. Sometimes it’s better to leave than to do a big confrontation. For me, I am in the process of confronting. I find several church practices completely unacceptable. Failing to comfort the broken hearted is unacceptable to me. Failing to have adequate evangelism is unacceptable to me. Failing to give opportunity to do wonderful things to build the Kingdom of God is unacceptable. The church itself has become an exclusive club whereby only certain people are qualified to do certain things. According to the Bible, Jesus is head of the church and we are all just brothers. This is what Jesus tried to explain to the Pharisees. When the blind man got healed, he tried to explain that he was blind and now he can see. The Pharisees dismissed him saying, “You cannot teach us.” However, the blind man understood truth better than they did. The church is now exclusive instead of inclusive. Those not included need a place to go.
I agree with you Lori. I left the church because I was never accepted as a mentally ill person with depression . People manipulated my family and used us as lab rats. It’s now about 15 years since we quit church and now I finally see Jesus as He is. He is love for my family. He cares and He heals.
Please do not ASSUME people left due to entitlement. Do you actually have data and surveys that support this theory? I know for a fact that I left to avoid engagement with others who sought power as I never sought to be a leader in life, yet I have been one that many have consulted since I was very young for whatever reason.
Additionally, please remember a church is a congregation of PEOPLE. Can you get along with ALL people in your life? Just like in business, a “manager” or church leadership, can make or break the “community.”
I could also refer to many biblical references. However, I am sure that you know them all.
Please open your doors and do not push anyone away with posts like this.
What my question is if you are doing all these things and the pastor gives you a letter asking why you are not looking at him while he is ministering, how should one answer or take this question. I look up and down because many times I’m taking notes or focusing on what he is saying as not to be distracted. The pastor and his wife are taking this as not having a pure heart. This is the person as to whom I am. I have been a member for more than 5 years and they have known me to be the same since becoming a member. How do one handle?
What my question is if you are doing all these things and the pastor gives you a letter asking why you are not looking at him while he is ministering, how should one answer or take this question. I look up and down because many times I’m taking notes or focusing on what he is saying as not to be distracted. The pastor and his wife are taking this as not having a pure heart. This is the person as to whom I am. I have been a member for more than 5 years and they have known me to be the same since becoming a member. How do one handle?
Well, I haven’t heard of anyone leaving because the pastor was “told” to visit a “cousin” but didn’t. My family went to two churches, one traditional and one AOG. I had a muscular dystrophy and then my husband got cancer. The AOG pastor treated us as though: we might be making it up, then that people who give and believe are healed…(So what “problem did we have that caused our sickness?”)When my husband’s remission ended, he *never* came, despite our regular attendance and gifts. He acted put off. My husband *was dying* at home and that church did nothing… Only one man there helped us a bit, but as though bending down to people lower than himself (we had never seen his home in all the years we were friends).
Only when my husband was dead did that pastor call to offer the church for a funeral. Instead, I elected to go to the Catholic Church where a priest had visited him dozens of times. As a lay person, I have visited the sick and dying far more and do not have a nice car to show for it. Those who didn’t manifest speaking in tongues and give large amounts seemed to be ignored. That’s not being entitled. It’s just noticing obvious painful abuses…
I wanted to add one reason. Some people may have had at one time a great willingness to serve their church but then were hurt by leadership gone awry and now is crippled by fear and the inability to trust church leadership.
Exactly what I would comment on. The Pastor and Elders should seek out a one on one relationship with the flock. Now this does not mean that a Pastor has to continually converse with the member every time they see one another. That would be ridiculous and not genuine. A Pastor that is viewed as very distant is a set back for the church. Distant feeling members will not get involved in the church activities and they certainly won’t want to be of service. Plain and simple. The leaders need to get out their inner circle of friends and make others feel they are included in his ministry. Otherwise you have members that are not committed or they decide to leave.
mine is issue that some members show no respect to Pastor and always when they preach they talk of themselves this discourage people .
what way we use to tell those to reform
It seems alot of responsibility is put on the pastor. Is there a example in new testament of a voted in pastor too preach sermons week after week for years,visit the sick,bury the flocks family members when they pass,etc.? Also the holy Spirit is supposed to have the freedom too place each member (sheep) in his or her functioning position. It seems the pastor has been made responsible for the body’s functioning an in turn it takes away from the brides organic expression of Jesus Christ. Instead of allowing the Lord Jesus to place them in the body so they can exercise there gifts and corporately express Jesus’ beautiful bride as One. Maybe some leave bc there is no building that can hold a Love that is only expressed through the whole body functioning under the heads hip of Jesus Christ Alone. His Love cannot be harnessed in a way that dims his light. With good intention ,I think most christians want to serve in ther church. Has the church become more about other things rather than the one thing. Jesus has to be the reference point. By him,through him,for him,to him. No big i’s an no little u’s. His bride is either flowing in step with her grooms new song and drawing multitudes to him through her free expression of his reciprocating Love. Or she is fragmented an stepping all over her grooms feet thus expressing a song that he never wrote. Are we doing this His wa?
Thom,
Do you think part of the problem may well be that the “model” of the church locations may be failing? In other words, the neighborhood church versus the ability to go within 100 miles because the change of the culture. (Horse and Buggy vs Car). I know that there are a TON of churches in my hometown and many are small and dying..and the bigger churches are growing through the attrition of the smaller. What are your thoughts about that?
This is a “Leadership Issue” not a “Congregation Issue”. The church is in a leadership crisis. We have plenty of pastors who can lead from a platform through teaching and preaching but do little else to connect with their people throughout the week. A pastor can’t do it alone. Let’s grow leaders who can implement the model Moses learned in Exodus 18 and build leadership capacity within our congregations to meet the needs of our people in a personal way. It seems to me that the church has developed most of its programs around “come to us” in stead of the mandate to “go and multiply”? Multiply leaders who will go outside the walls of the church 168 hours each week to meet people where they are and “The Church” will grow.
Amen Brother!
Thank you Steve.
Well said Dave.
I agree that it is a leadership issue. My experience indicates that on the average, pastors jump congregations with a frequency that is not much better than the lay membership. How can a pastor lead the charge for long term committment if he is unwilling to deal with the discomfort that goes with it? Too many clerics hold their “callings” with the same attitude as a day laborer.
I totally agree with you Mr. Dave McAuley. I’ve been trying to get across that people need to be called or ministered to some way throughout the week. I’ve been going through a life crises, several all at once, and did not feel support from the church in which I was attending. Someone would ask how I am on Sunday, me in pieces, but didn’t seem to care enough to follow up. I came up w/the term “Sunday Friends” and it starting eating at me. I didn’t just want “Sunday Friends.” I was yearning for someone, anyone, to connect with, period, and especially emotional support throughout the week. But people are blind to those in need. I think unless you’ve been in those shoes, you don’t know what to do. Love is the key. Love as Jesus did. And Jesus didn’t only love on Sundays. He didn’t even wait for people to “come” to him. He went “out” to the people. I do feel led where I am going now, and have signed up for 3 classes in which I feel that I will be seriously be connected on and off campus. God Bless.
I had a similar experience recently. My wife and I had a crisis that put us at odds with each other in a legal matter. I had been a church volunteer and weekday service attender, whereas my wife was able only to attend on Sundays. In our crisis, we both reached out to church members, I to my Pastor and another church couple, and my wife to the Pastor’s wife. My Pastor had initially met with me once, promised his help and support and understanding. I requested he reach out to my wife, which he promised to do and give me some feedback. He promised to call me back, etc, and never did. I called the Associate Pastor for help also (who directed my volunteer service) and all I got were the usual platitudes like “Jesus will help you.” They took my wife’s side, and the Pastor initially stated he would come to court to support me emotionally and he then reneged. However, his wife was there supporting my wife!!! I have even attended church in the meantime, and he has promised to call me, get together to talk, and never did. It has been 2 months since the incident and nothing! The women all rallied around my wife, which caused all the men to leave me hanging, and my wife wants to know why I don’t want to go to church on Sunday? This is also not the first church things like this have happened to me in. I now think that this is endemic to all churches, due to the fact that they are defacto, if not dejure, being led by women. Women have all the influence and the men are milqtoasts. The only people to stand by me were the one couple, and they got a lot of flack for their trouble. I get more staying home and studying the bible for myself at this point. Who needs it?
Hi Adam. I am so sorry for the experience you had. I feel you pain and frustration. However, do not give up on church and the fellowship that is so very important. Pray for God to lead you to a place of worship that you can be warmly welcomed and plugged into. I just started attending a new church 2 weeks ago, and have joined some small groups to get connected w/people of similiar life experiences, people that are reaching back w/emotional support. The 1st service I attended was all about connecting!!! How about that…God is amazing today, yesterday, and forever. I hope you can find a place of worship you can call home. I wil be praying for you. Love in Christ, Valerie 🙂
If you are not the pastor’s favorite… forget it … he will see and help only his favorites… believe me I know what I’m talking about.
Yes! Not all, but most! I will not even say how wicked my previous pastor was. Because some of what he did was criminal, let alone immoral and ungodly. But elders would never RUN him off. They protected him and supported him while the sheep were being abused and leaving. No elder that I know of ever called him down and rebuked him for anything. Anytime he was questioned, he would lie his way out of it. And the elders would pray for him and let it go. The elders and church staff are just as much at fault for not stopping him and protecting the sheep.
Great post Dave!
I agree with Dave – This is a leadership issue. And when leadership has an “entitlement” mentality themselves, then the sheep are sure to follow.
agree, it came to the point that I got tired hearing it every Sunday, the Pastor has to tell everybody that he is the Pastor so and so and so and he did this and that,that he is merciful and that , most of the sermon was about himself!!!! But why are the people leaving if he was that great ? We found out after many years . He talked a lot I mean a lot about loyalty, and he was surrounded by boards and people who are willing to fight for him. Wow, poor people if you cross the line you are out of the door, they will guard the parking lot to make sure you can’t come back inside the church. I started to think this is madness and cultic. The fall and rise starts from the leadership the pastor preached one Sunday so it did. This is leadership issue period. I pray for people who have been hurt by the leadership that they may find a group that they can connect and be healed.
Thank you. I was going to say something similar. Though I understand what this gentleman is saying, the leadership has must take responsibility as well for creating the illusion of entitlment by their example. Too many times the leadership doesn’t understand their role. TO SERVE and shepherd, not dominate and control. Too many entitled pastors who think they need armor bearers and servants to carry their bible and grovel over their leaders. They think they are the ones to be served. A heiraechial system is NOT biblically sound . Lead by example and the people will follow. We are to serve one another in love.
This is a major dysfunction that could be expounded upon almost indefinitely.
Amen man of God that true
Absolutely! Amen. You are spot on.
Do you really want new leaders? Are you willing to let them lead in their own way? Are you willing to step back and not micromanage them? Are you waiting on them to fail and then tell them they are incompetent?
I am not sure any organization from churches to political parties to civic organizations wants new leaders because things might be done in a different manner than they were. Now different does not have to mean incorrect or immoral though to many people different equals wrong.
Amen!
I look at the parable of the talents. The fact that my church refuses to allow me to use my many talents there does not excuse me from building God’s Kingdom. God is going to ask me, “What did you do with the gifts that I have given you?” My answer cannot be, “I could not get the church to allow me to use my gifts. They wanted me to go paint houses and I don’t even know how to paint my own house. They wanted me to stack chairs and I have a foot problem.” God will not be pleased if he equipped me to evangelize and comfort the broken and I listened to a man say go stack chairs. I would rather listen to God and let man disapprove.
Very helpful. Thank you.
Thanks Terrell .
Your analysis agrees with my experience. Related to helping people change that attitude is keeping them in the church long enough to allow that to happen. If they are not made to feel welcome in the church by intentionally including them in the activities of the church and treating them as a valuable member they will not want to stay long. As an associate in one church much of my time was spent greeting everyone, talking to them and taking an interest in them. During that 4 years the church grew and we lost only one or two families to other churches. I did relate to the people as a “method” but simply because I truly love people even the ones that aren’t always lovable. The senior pastor made it a point to acknowledge new people and any noteworthy events in peoples lives and I kept him informed of such things.
Thanks Tom. Your role in ministry there was invaluable. I am thankful for your servant mentality.
Before I make my comment, let me give some brief background. I have been a believer for over 25 years and a member of three different Baptist churches since 1987. I am a bible college and seminary graduate (B.A; M.A,MDiv).
How about people leaving a church because they are not being used? That is the case I am currently in. I was teaching an Adult Bible Fellowship and then I was replaced with no warning or explanation. I have never been asked to fill the pulpit. It is tough because I spent several years getting my education and never thought I would be on the “sidelines” for three years after my seminary graduation. i will fulfill my responsibilities, but when they are completed, II will leave, unless something changes. What is strange is that our church houses a seminary within its complex.
I would rather find a church where I can be used rather than be penalized for being a seminary graduate.
Terry –
Being involved in ministry is absolutely critical to closing the back door.
Many times I found the ones running a certain ministry is not looking for others to join or help – no matter how many times you say or ask. What do you do then? Been a active church member for 10 years always there when service happens.
Terry,
I could not agree with you more. Going through something very similar, I have learned that there are a variety of reasons why this is happening. Whatever the case is, your church should have offered you a staff position and called on you to fill the pulpit whenever needed. A real church would have done this.
One thing you can take a look at though. Since churches and leadership tend to be consistent on issues like this, take a look at other examples in the church of how they are equiping people for ministry. You may find, that your church only gives lip service to training and equiping for ministry, even with a seminary housed on the campus.
Also, I am curious. Is your church a small church of less than 100 or is it a large church. I am under the impression that the smaller the church, the less likely you will ever be used for ministry to the capacity in whuch you are able.
Yes. It could be you do have your degrees. Yet, is it simply the pulpit, where you feel the razzle dazzle? As in construction. When a person knows how to do all the little things. That person, will never be without work.
Roy,
In my case, the issue of the pulpit was simply the most visable public blazing sign stating that the church was not interested in supporting someone called to ministry. Additionally, to use the construction analagy, my case is one of being the skilled laborer being passed over for someone who is not even expected to be on the jobsite.
Its’ all power plays anymore. Our church is very small, and the entire worship team consists of the Pastor’s family! Good luck breaking in to that! Pastor is great at preaching sermons, but not much else. He never even shows up to most of the church’s special events.
Adam, I would be very slow to make statements like, “My Pastor is great at preaching sermons, but no much else.” To bring such a damning charge upon one who will give account over your soul is not from the Spirit. Do you pray weekly for your Pastor & his family? You need to seek reconciliation with your Pastor in person & not anonymously trash him in a blog. We don’t know who he is or even who you are, but God certainly does. Seek peace & forgiveness in person & if you feel he has sinned against you then express that to him in an appropriate setting.
Brent,
Where in the Bible does it say a pastor will give an account of your soul? As Baptists, we agree with scripture that we are a priesthood of believers… that means no priest, pastor or minister is going to be giving any account on your behalf.
Since I don’t know Adam’s church, I’m not going to pass judgement on him at all. He is the one there and while I believe there is some value in being faithful to your pastor, I have seen way too many in ministry because no one wants to tell them they are terrible in ministry… and in some cases, should be disqualified and fired because of their personal lives.
Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.”
Pastors, Like mine, yours & Adam’s, will give an account to the Lord one day for their service of shepherding the souls that have been entrusted to the flock they tend to. Of course every believer is accountable for their own soul before the Lord, but as the shepherd of that local flock, that local shepherd will give an account for his service and shepherding. This is a totally different subject than the priesthood of believers. Therefore if Adam has a conflict or sees a dangerous blind spot then he should in gentleness and love alert his shepherd rather than carry what appears to be a sizable enough concern that he would burn him in front of an anonymous audience, yet not approach that man to his face. That my brother is what I am referring too. In Christ,
Brent
Thanks for the clarification Brent… though we are both fluent in English, this terrible language can be confusing.
My advice to Adam is to bring your concerns up to your pastor. However, if the leadership in your church has not brought it up, they are either ok with the status quo or simply have no idea what should be expected of a pastor.
If the latter is true, no amount of input from you will make a difference… It is ok to go and serve somewhere else.
Terry and Jason,
I can understand your frustrations with feeling overlooked or believing you’re being denied opportunities for more significant ministry. But have you gone to your pastor(s) and humbly asked why they have seemingly bypassed or overlooked you? Let me gently encourage you to focus on servant ministry needs that are readily available to you and not expect to be promoted to the higher seat of public ministry.
I do appreciate your perspective on this Pete and I have done this. It is not about an unreasonable expectation for promotion. It’s about being allowed to serve, especially in areas of ministry that are not being served in any meaningful way. Fortunately, when I did take my concerns to the pastor, he at least made it a priority to fill the pulpit in his absence from within our church.
Unfortunately, many churches have the same problem. It’s related to the issue of what educational qualifications churches require of their senior pastors, an MDiv or higher, but a total lack of willingness to help college and seminary students accomplish this… including providing for practicum and internship requirements. Generally, churches that are like this often have a low expectation of discipleship over all. By the way, our seminary here in California does not allow students to take out Federal Stafford loans, a policy I agree with, but it’s difficult to move through seminary without minimal financial support from your home church.
Up until about a year ago, I thought this second back door was unique to small churches, but after some conversations with several church planters, I discovered that many youth ministers of medium sized churches leave to become church planters for the same reasons… but again, it’s not about promotion, its about restraints that are driven by placing church growth over evangelism and discipleship… which, oddly enough, hurts church growth growth.
As for me, I am moving into church planting now. However, since my calling still is (and I suspect will remain) youth and student ministries, I am actively recruiting possible bi-lingual pastors to reach communities in my area of California… with whom I can serve as part of a team.
Jason…Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You have helped me become better informed on an issue that I have not personally experienced, but can now better relate to. I also am a church planter and am happy to hear of God’s leading in your life.
Yes, I have and did not get a straight answer.
Was thinking about your comment. Are you thinking about leaving that church because you are not feeling used there, or not being used in pulpit ministry? I do understand the frustration of working hard to prepare for a specific ministry, and then not be able to do it. Was just wondering. I will be praying for you that God guides you into His perfect will for your life and that He uses you to fulfill the exact purpose for which He created you.
Yes, I am thinking about leaving precisely because I am not being used and because I am not getting any support from the church with regard to going into full-time ministry. I have completed my seminary training back in 2010. A well-trained seminary graduate should not be on the sidelines in any church.
Hello Terry,
I think you should know that you are never on the sidelines. Their are always opportunities for you to share the gospel on your own time ,and seek and save the lost. We have to understand that we are the church and the “church” is not just some building we go to. God might have you on the sidelines for a reason. Jesus says to exalt yourself and you will be humbled , but If you humble your self you will be exalted. We have to understand that the church is not a worldly business. So just because I have a seminary degree doesn’t mean I should be running the church, even though I know you didn’t exactly mean it that way. It’s God’s church and its all about where He wants you, Jeremaiah 29:11. So , fast and pray and Ask God where exactly he wants you to minister and He will show you. I don’t think that you should leave your church unless God clearly directs you and you hear directly from Him(Holy Spirit). Amen. I hope that encourages you.
God bless!!!
I understand the feeling. About ten years ago the local church I was in put up walls in every single ministry I could have helped in with my past experience, talents, interests, and gift-set (children’s, worship team, missionary trips, assistant art teacher for summer programs, etc.) After years of trying to find a place to serve, reaching out to various ministries, talking with the minister in charge of finding people a place to serve, etc. I gave up. They were only interested in letting me join the Greet team since I was an unmarried woman at the time (while I wouldn’t mind filling in temporarily if there was a need, there clearly was *not* a need there as over a dozen people did it every week and the faces changed frequently. Plus, as an introvert and with it not fitting my giftset it would have meant burnout long-term.)
Instead, I found a couple parachurch ministries to serve in (eBible, Dress a Girl) which allowed me to use my spiritual gifts and serve on a regular basis. Shortly after, I started attending a different local church and found countless opportunities to serve both regularly with my gifts and to fill in for sudden needs.
If you’ve tried various avenues and are still finding doors for you shutting at your church group, it might be time to pray and consider if God wants you in a parachurch ministry or to reach out to other local churches that might need help. The Holy Spirit gave us gifts to use them for equipping the church. If a church group isn’t allowing you to use those gifts in any capacity, or to work with you to see how they can be used, then it isn’t a healthy place.
Good grief Terry, how very sad your story is. Come to our church! We’ll put you right to work! I’m an officer in the Salvation Army and we put all soldiers (members) to work! Find a Salvation Army congregation and you’ll not be sorry. But if you’re close to Annapolis, MD join us and a myriad of service ministries that desperately need leaders with education and experience. I don’t understand how you’re not being utilized! It’s crazy. I’ll be praying for you 🙂 blessings!
Thanks for the offer, I wish I was closer to Annapolis, MD!
i agree to a certain extent. I can understand the hurt of being replaced without any warning. That certainly wasn’t handled right. my question is how large is the church? How many seminary students attend there? Could it be a case where it would be difficult for the pastor to let every seminary student fill the pulpit. Not trying too be critical
just trying to look at it through a pastor’s eyes.
Church is about 680. I have been here almost 11 years. I finished seminary in 2010. There are maybe three current students that attend here. I am one of a few who have finished their seminary training and are still here. There is one man who went to another seminary and also has an MDiv.
I am not talking about filling the pulpit with a student, but why not use people that have finished their training and are waiting for a place to serve. Brian Croft from practicalshepherding.com talks in several articles about affirming men who are in your church and have completed their formal education.
I have never once asked to ever fill a pulpit, but I am beginning to wonder if I never preach where I am currently a member, then how can the pastor or staff give any kind of honest recommendation of my preaching?
Churches are looking for men with experience and it is a catch-22 of sorts. If you have no experience, then they will not hire you. I interviewed with a church a few months ago that was ready to hire me, but they had some serious theological issues that I do not think they were willing to budge on, including having someone on the pulpit committee that was not qualified for church leadership. Churches will ask for sermon recordings, it is quite embarrassing to send them a sermon from 2008 because I do not have anything more recent.
I had thought about going on for further education (ThM, PhD or DMin), competition was too great at the ThM and PhD level and I got rejected from a different seminary. Was going to go the DMin route and found out I can’t get in because I do not have any post-MDiv vocational ministry experience.
Terry,
I think you are hitting on something that is very relavant to our situations. One thing I have discovered with churches in the SF Bay Area connected with GGBTS, a Southern Baptist Seminary… these churches are very open to creating associate pastoral positions in their churches for seminary students who either need to be involved in minsitry for course requirements or for final placement and “integration” into ministry. On the other hand, where I am, 230 miles south of SF, pastors and churches are completely unaware of this need. It is not uncommon that people with a BA in Biblical studies and ministry or an MDiv will be overlooked.
The main problem here is you can have a degree or an MDiv and 10+ years of experience in ministry, but if the church you are with right now does not even offer you an internship, you have little cahnce of being called by a search committee to serve elsewhere.
The only way to break this is make yourself available to pastors that you know… and make yourself available for both short term internships as well as long term permanent ministries.
Hey everyone,
I have read your post and sympathize for your desire to be involved. I have been in the ministry for twenty years now. I do not have a degree but I know I was called to preach. Every time I wanted to go to seminary something always blocked my path. It was finances, family and even health issues. My bible is all I need to proclaim the gospel. I love God’s word and cannot study it enough. It is a craving, a hunger and a thirst for me. Some of the bigger churches were unwilling to allow me to speak but I hold no ill will toward them. I love the church. The key to a servant attitude is to follow the Holy Spirit. No matter what we have done, none of us are entitled to anything. It is not about us, it is about Jesus. I wish you guys were in Mississippi. I would certainly put you to work. I am very concerned about our country and the path it has taken over the past few years. Let me encourage you to follow your heart and bloom where you are planted. No one said it would be easy. I stand upon God’s promise that He will never fail me nor forsake me. Be willing to go wherever He leads you. I will keep you in my prayers. May God direct your path and bless your journey.
Hi Paul. Thank you so much for your encouraging words. And I feel you are right, all you need to teach or preach the true gospel is the Word. Have a blessed day and keep doing what you do. Love in Christ, Valerie.
Boom! Preach it Thom!
Thanks Hunter!
The reasons identified in this post would lead me to suspect that the folks who are leaving did not and do not understand the concept of being a Christ-follower. They received the Word gladly but never understood that it wasn’t about their needs. For that, the local church has only itself to blame. In my experience (50 + years) we have called them to ‘come to church’ and then we wonder why they didn’t also become faithful disciples. It’s essentially a bait and switch model. We enable and encourage the form because we fear too many will leave if we call them to genuinely follow the Master. Psst, they leave anyway! In the meantime, even those who stay are often crippled in their faith.
While individual circumstances may affect things, Terry’s comment regarding empowering their people, should be taken to heart. This is precisely because, genuine Christ-followers will want and expect to be involved. If it’s about filling slots in the church programs, there will never be enough slots for everyone to fill. If it’s about equipping disciples to minister and make disciples, there will be an unlimited opportunity. Churches that only value and/or recognize formal ministry directly related to their programs will face two issues. The slightly interested will lose interest and the committed disciples will naturally leave for places that will encourage Kingdom building instead of kingdom building.
The churches are more in crisis today because the generation that thought they should be committed to the ‘local assembly’ no matter what is aging. Christ followers are committed to the Kingdom no matter what and that may mean that churches who live to perpetuate themselves may matter far less in the future.
I cant totally agree with you here….We left the church my husbands family had attended for many decades because the church fell away from biblical truth….we felt we had no choice to leave when the church become so liberal with it’s own doctrines and totally disengaged itself from the gospel.
Donna –
Please note that I did say there are valid reasons for leaving a church, and your reason is certainly valid.
Thank you for taking time to comment.
Excellent post.
Jesus had the same issues. Crowds followed him to get more food, not to selflessly serve as His disciples (John 6:26).
Even large numbers of His own disciples left when they couldn’t cope with the difficulty of His teachings (John 6:66).
Jesus never chased after these people for fear that numbers would diminish, but listened to His Father and refused to be distracted by the pressures to conform to worldly popularity.
Thank you.
Dr. Rainer,
This was something I recently discussed with my fellow elders (and turned into a blogpost today). I think there needs to be clear understanding of what it means to be a covenant member of a local church. I know that church covenants are coming back into evangelical life (which is huge IMO), but how are they being employed? Are they functionally having conscious implications on how members think and live?
What you mentioned as the entitlement mentality, I referred to viewing their commitment to the church as a contract – meaning that whenever the conditions are not met to their satisfaction, they feel justified in leaving the church. Covenant members don’t think this way. They are bound to one another like family. They know disappointments, frustrations, and heartaches will happen. They choose to engage with grace and forgiveness rather leaving with bitterness and sin. In other words, when members learn to live on the basis of the gospel (one of repentance and faith) as opposed to self-absorption, we enter into the front door of each other’s lives and don’t entertain the back door of the church.
Thanks for writing this helpful article! Oh, and here’s my article FWIW –
http://timmybrister.com/2013/01/church-covenant-or-church-contract/
Good word Tim. I just read your blogpost. It is excellent. I encourage my readers to read it.
Rarely have I read a more arrogant post. If this is the mindset of any lead pastor, this will naturally become the attitude of all staff members. What this demonstrates is a lack of love & a servant attitude of leaders. With this being the predominate attitude, it fosters an ‘us against them’ in the body of Christ. With the above attitude, leaders are apt to admit error or learn a Christ-like servants heart. Exactly the opposite of what you are determined to teach your ‘servants’….
Liz –
I do hope my heart was not arrogant when I wrote this post. I do know, however, that I am a sinner who often strays. I pray that God will show me where my heart is wrong here.
Mr. Rainer, I cannot agree with Liz. While I do not know her and cannot say what her personality is, my first thought regarding her is this.
I get the strong impression that she is one of the persons that would leave because the ‘leaders’ of the congregation are not meeting her needs. If I am wrong in that impression, I apologize.
Whoa Liz…Be careful you’re not bringing in some emotional baggage from somewhere else and unloading it on Thom. I read Thom’s blog and did not come away with any of what you just wrote.
Liz hit the nail on the head. I have a family member that is a pastor and he will freely tell you he is only concerned with what his congregants can do for him.
Liz is absolutely right. This article is horrendous. Thom is completely out of touch with why people leave churches. He is writing about something he clearly has no experience in.
Finally, someone said it! Thank you Dr. Rainer.
Thanks David.
Dr. Rainer, I loved the content in your blog, and it reminded me of the many ways our churches fail to connect with people. If we were really connecting with people, they wouldn’t leave because they “couldn’t” leave. They would be intimately tied to the church in such a way that leaving would be painful because it would mean fracturing relationships. This is an extreme viewpoint, but I believe it to be a tangible way to evaluate how well we are keeping people in our churches.
As I read your responses to the reasons people leave churches, I believe each of them makes a very valid point for the church’s response to the open back door. We need to find ways to communicate a clear path of discipleship for people in our churches.
But as I read the book unChristian by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons, and then look at the comments you quoted in your blog, I don’t think churches are addressing the problem. The quotes you cited from people who left the church don’t point to a systems issue. There may be symptoms of leadership issues. But the main thread is a lack of connection between people. Each of those quotes shows a hurt that could have been addressed by building healthy relationships.
Kinnaman and Lyons write, “Mosaics and Busters are the ultimate ‘conversation generations.’ They want to discuss, debate, and question everything. This can be either a source of frustration or an interest we use to facilitate new and lasting levels of spiritual depth in young people. Young outsiders want to have discussions, but they perceive Christians as unwilling to engage in genuine dialogue.” (Kinnaman, David & Lyons, Gabe. unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity…and Why It Matters. Baker Books, October 1, 2007. Kindle AZW file.)
If we are answering peoples’ felt needs with membership expectations, programs, buildings, or even theology without allowing them to interact and engage in the discussion, we are missing why the back door is so wide open and widely used. People are leaving churches using the term “irrelevant” not because the Gospel didn’t apply to them, but because our inability to engage them in conversation made them feel marginalized and irrelevant.
Kinnaman and Lyons go on to say, “…for many people the Christian faith looks weary and threadbare. They admit they have a hard time actually seeing Jesus because of all the negative baggage that now surrounds him.” (Ibid.) I truly believe most of the negative baggage surrounding Jesus has to do with how we as the church have “packaged” Him, not the truth of who He is.
Nobody wants to go to hell. Nobody wants to miss out on the life God has for them. But if they can’t figure out a way to take ownership of that life for themselves and have to jump hurdles we put up just to engage, it’s our fault they want to leave. Moreover, I applaud them for doing so, lest they become actors in and unfolding drama void of biblical truth and the certainty of eternity.
By the way. This is the second time I’ve seen pastor Rainer refer to the statistic regarding the disparity between a stated belief in training and an actual practiced value on training. This is deeply disturbing to me. It’s not that some, or many pastors have no plan for training its that THREE QUARTERS of them have no plan. Is not our purpose to ‘equip the saints’??? I think that much of the local church’s issues could be traced back to this subject. It reflects a do as I say, not as I do thought process. Isn’t that the knock on churches from so many these days? Are we too focused on the business of doing church and doing Sunday morning? Should not practical training of leaders and disciples be given a higher priority?
I am a passionate small group guy. Leader, trainer (ahhah, the connection!) and shepherd to small group leaders. I absolutely believe in the value of small groups. Unfortunately, I’ve seen far, far too many occasions where they fall painfully short of their potential because leaders of small groups are either untrained or poorly trained and poorly shephereded. Often the good that can come from small groups is more than un-done by this lack of attention given to the leaders of small groups. Small groups are only one area where ‘equippng’ isn’t being done or done very well.
This topic is the subject of my upcoming Wednesday blog.
I really disagree with this post. It sounds very arrogant and as if you’re making the problem there’s. God said I no longer call you servants, I call you friends, so why do we have to adopt the mind of a slave to be welcomed into church? We have the ministry of reconciliation, to help people find and follow Jesus and come into who they are as SONS and DAUGHTERS of the King. That’s what people are looking for even if they don’t know it. It can manifest as superficial and natural reasons such as not being fed (a legitimate problem) or not be greeted when they come to church. But it is the Body’s job to introduce them to a God who loves ten more than anything and the Discipleship Spirit comes from knowing who you are as an heir. If you want to gain members and close the back door, do what Jesus did: Love people, pray for the sick, cast out demons.
Mark, I think ur confusing what Thom was trying to point out. HOW do we become the church Jesus envisioned.
Yes, we should love people, pray for the sick and cast out demons. But how do we go about doing that practically? And if we’re not doing it, why not and/or what are we doing wrong?
I don’t see how Thom’s post was arrogant and I think we all need to be careful about how we throw labels like that around. It’s one thing to disagree, quite another to call someone arrogant just because they brought up something they felt might need to be addressed in churches.
I believe there are many good churches and leaders in them who want to do better but don’t know how to.
We often forget Paul’s advice on criticism to the effect that we each “stand or fall” to our Master, and that He is able to make us stand… therefore criticism is not endorsed generally, and only when necessary to restore health to the body, as in the case of Paul’s instruction in Corinthians regarding the flagrantly disobedient brother. The “cancer” in the body of Christ is “followers” who refuse to be led by anyone but their own desires or egos. It is only appropriate for Thom to point out what is needed in the body in general, as one who has been chosen by God and approved by the Body as a leader. He is not being arrogant, but observant, and speaks in a prophetic role in a sense, “forth-telling” to the Body as a whole.
This is very insightful. Sadly, some people like my family, had to make the difficult decision to leave a church (in love) because we DO have a servant mentality and not an entitlement mentality. WE were being served with excellence and great abundance. But…it’s not about me.
In reference to my previous post, I should have also pointed out, I wasn’t just being served..I served in many leadership roles over 14 years and loved my church. God changed my heart to serve & reach outside the walls of the church. After trying for years to make it work, it just didn’t line up with the “country club” vision that I had become so comfortable with.
To those who think Dr. Rainer’s post was “arrogant”, remember it’s based on actual research and not opinion.
If it’s “arrogant” to call believers, and churches, to a higher standard of unselfish discipleship, may more preachers be found guilty.
Where is this research? It is not stated as far as I can see. I may be missing the citation somewhere.
Tammy –
There is no singular research project, but several projects that influenced the blog. You can thus find some of the research in two books by me: “High Expectations” (albeit older data) and “Millennials.” You can see much of the data related to the latter at LifeWayResearch.com. Also, Kinnaman’s research noted in his book “You Lost Me” was instructive.
Thanks for asking.
As far as the excuses go, they can really all be condensed into one real reason. “I don’t see the value”. The other junk is just rationale.
All your suggestions are very good, but #2 absolutely hits the nail on the head. It’s easier to join, and more is expected of when in, the Kiwanis Club, then the SBC churches with which I am familiar.
You are so right Bob. Thanks.
Thom,
I am an associate pastor and had a quick question. In your study or experience what is the best time to offer a New Member class or a Doorway class? Is it on Sunday morning during the Sunday School hour or Sunday afternoon before an evening service. Also is it best to keep them to 1-2 weeks in length? We used to do one that covered various aspects of our ministry over a 6 week period and we found most folks made half of the classes. I would appreciate your insight.
Todd –
I am reticent to name a “best” time since so many factors are contextual. I will say, however, that Sunday morning is the most common time followed closely by Sunday afternoon. Also, more churches are moving toward one class (typically about three hours in length) rather than a multi-day class for the reasons you stated.
Blessings.
I went to a church. I wanted to be saved. It was all new to me so I wasn’t familiar with so much that they seemed to assume i should know. I took their “new members class” that same day. After that class, I never went back. I felt they had put a million and one demands on me and I had not even gotten to the point of being baptized. They scared me away and I never tried again. I am not complaining, but hoping for you folks to understand how it feels to someone to be new to it all. Give them a chance to acclimate and learn before you give the many demands.
Thanks Debra. We need to hear that perspective.
By the way Debra, you did not mention if you ever were saved. If you would like to communicate about that in a non-threatening environment, email me via my assistant: Amy.Jordan@LifeWay.com. Thanks.
It may be that older members are leaving for those reasons but having Christian young people in our home on a regular (3-4 nights a week) basis the biggest reason they give for leaving the church is “judgment”. They are expected to be living a righteous life the minute they get saved and not given time to grow. There is also very little one on one discipleship going on in most churches. We weren’t called to mentor people on church membership (there was no such thing in the first century assembly). We were called to “go and make disciples”
Good points Candace.
It appears there is not one but two back doors in most churches. One door is used by those with the dissatisfaction mindset, as you have described, of not being provided with ministry services while the other door is used by those who are gifted with talents and ministries but feel restrained from exercising them. These second-door believers are not frustrated by a lack of Spirit-led ability to serve others as God has graced them but rather a lack of opportunity to serve, fellowship, or relate with fellow believers in a manner the Holy Spirit encourages. In my view, this is indicative of a foundational flaw in the institutional mindset. and structure. Many of these second-door believers are exiting in search of a deeper and more profound body experience which they will ultimately find in a relational church construct.
Well stated Kent.
Kent, you said what I have been thinking for a long time, but you said it so much more eloquently that I did in my original comment. Thanks for reading my mind!
Well stated Ken. There are definitely 2 back doors wide open in some churches. 1 for the church hoppers (and I mean that negatively toward churches, not individuals) and 1 for those of us who have taken the time to earn a degree in our ministry calling and continuing through seminary. I just wish that I walked through that back door 4 years ago when it was pointed out to me instead of thinking that I could be effective as a side-liner.
“…but rather a lack of opportunity to serve, fellowship, or relate with fellow believers in a manner the Holy Spirit encourages.” That is our story, Kent. Our church is in an afluent suburb. My wife and I are almost entirely exluded from singing on the Worship Team because, apparently, though very fit 50-somethings, we don’t fit the “hip” image the church wants to project. Also, the church talks about connecting, but it is filled with closed cliques, including the pastor. We send cards, ask others out to lunch after church, are very friendly … but we get very little back in return. I don’t think this describes an entitlement mentality. We moved here 8 years ago because of my job and we have no family within 600 miles. We’re just frustrated at not being allowed to use our spiritual gifts in our local church, and to put it bluntly, we’re really lonely. The people we know from work and the community are so much more loving and real than our “Sunday friends.”
Richard,
It sounds as if you and your wife might be the victims of a church culture that is promoting an atmospere to attract the younger of society at the expense of neglecting the older age groups in the church. You mention the pastor, and I would venture to guess that he probably fits that younger set as well.
This is all too often the case across our country; when church’s become so focused on seeking out the young and striving for an appearance of being hip in the community. Since typically the middle aged and elderly tend to be less vocal regarding their spiritual needs they can tend to be overlooked and disregarded in the church, with everyting that these folks tend to enjoy quickly falling by the wayside. Traditional vs contemporary music for example. We have all heard of church’s that start out with a mix of traditional and contemporary music only to see the traditional quickly take a back seat.
Good leadership will strive to be constantly aware of the needs of all ages and make sure all are involved that want to be, and never at the expense of the others.
Regarding service…….one thing I heard that just about made me fall of my chair was about a church that required people to actually audition in order to be accepted into the choir. I could not believe the arrogance of such a group! If a person feels the desire to sing praises to their God as a choir member they should be allowed to even if they cannot carry a tune in a bucket. The whole idea and purpose for a church choir is not for the purpose of impressing the congregation with voices like the Mormon Tabernacle. That flat, out of tune voice, from a dedicated servant probably sounds like REAL music to God’s ears vs the tuned and perfect voices of a clique of snobs.
Let me just say that I believe that Dr. Rainer is very astute in his assessment. Many Christians are missing the point of what it means to belong to covenant community in which they submit to the godly leadership in place. But I also believe it to be wise to address the similar problem that exists amongst church leaders. If pastors’ are prone to oversee a church for just a few measly years (2-3), why should we be surprised if the rest of congregation picks up the similar habit? I am currently serving a church and entering into my seventh year of service. Comparing myself to previous pastors, I have the second longest tenure in the church’s history (the first being eight years!). The problem is that my church is in proximity of a large Southern Baptist seminary. The church is not financially able to support most pastors, so it only attracts seminary students. Unfortunately, once they receive their M.Div., they are off to “bigger and better” churches. It is not coincidence that the time served by previous pastors directly correlates to the time to receive a degree. If some Christians see the church as a country club, then some seminarians see small churches as stepping stones to further ministerial career.
Good balanced perspective Seth.
Ask not, “What can the Church do for me?” Rather ask, “What can I do for the Church?”
I like it!
. I personally do not expect anything from a church but I have yet to meet someone who doesn’t try to get me to go to their church by making some kind of implied promise as to what will happen if I start going. This has been my personal experience, so that may differ from yours or even anyone reading this. I have never in my life been invited to a church where the person asked me to come to help someone else. The invitation is always about being saved or being more personally fullfilled if I start going. If I do decide to go, then there is often the implication that I believe exactly as the church teaches. All the while, I would be under the impression that by conforming to their belief system I would indeed reap personal manifestations of healing, peace, etc etc. While it is good to inform people of the reality that a church organization really doesn’t have the power to do such things, Outside the church walls the expectations are likely being falsely built up long before someone makes a choice to give it a try.
We have some leave because of too much commitment. They end up going to what I heard someone call church like. A church where they can go Sunday morning and hear a good sermon and not have any commitment. I think it also means they can miss a Sunday and not have anyone notice
.
Good point Jerry!
I know of a couple that actually left a church after many years for that exact reason. Relatives of this couple told me that these folks were doing nearly everything in the church but preach and finally couldn’t take it any more. They were just exhausted and overwhelmed. Many in that church knew they were dedicated servants….and the rest of them let them……..
On the other hand, I have actually been told by another couple in their 50’s that they chose the church they now attend because of its size, saying that it would be a church that would be easy to “Hide In”.
Indicating to me that there are at least some that are attending your church that are not looking for areas of ministry and have no onterest in areas of ministry and will only begin looking for the back door when they are eventually asked to do something. These are the happily non-committed “Pew Warmers”, which every church has more than their share of.
It is interesting to me and also very revealing that the discussion is not about leaving Christ, but more so leaving an institution. I think Heartspeak has stated that point precisely and with more depth. There seems to be an honest desire to serve the Lord, however serving the church not the Christ sounds more paramount in this post and it’s preceding comments. Paul dealt with that very issue in 1 Cor. 1 about how there was division over who baptized who. The conversion IS to Christ. For those that are they find themselves communing with others like themselves.
John Woodall…Are you making an error of not “discerning the body of Christ” when you separate His local body, the so called institutional church, from Christ’s body. “It is interesting to me and also very revealing that the discussion is not about leaving Christ, but more so leaving an institution.” It is popular among many earnest believers today, to despise the local church of Jesus Christ for its many real and perceived flaws.
Pete,
I’m not for sure if a local body of Christ actually exists. I understand there is one Lord, one faith, one body…Eph 4. You are assuming I’m desping some local body calling themselves after Christ. What I don’t find to be of value is what I’ve come to know of “church” and “going to church”. My point was to deal with the thrust of the article and address this idea of membership. Question, where in the Scriptures do you see an individual place membership? Or someone accept someone as a member of a group? How about the procedure of placing membership? Forms, questionairres, approval/denial process? Can you find a Scripture(s) to support this concept? How about transferring membership? How about removing membership from one person? All questions that are assumed they are based in Scripture, thus giving the institution birth.
These are also my thoughts about today’s church. I believe people mean well and want to serve Christ, but today’s churches are no different that the temples that were destroyed in scripture. Jesus destroyed the temples that people worshipped God in because He was going to raise up His own temple made of people. Jesus wants His body to move about while ministering the gospel and making disciples in communities and abroad, baptizing them in the name of Father , the Son and the Spirit. When we minister to people on the streets and serve the least of these, we are worshipping God with our life. This is where serving and worshipping God is based on Spirit and Truth. We are to come together for prayer and fellowship so we can support one another, but today people can’t break old habits that started again in 300ad when the Catholic Church was started by Constantine. Its has just evolved into different denominations that separates Gods people from true worship base on Spirit and Truth. What I am saying is based on scripture, not my own thoughts. Problems are because of man made temples called the church. The building has become a holy idol for men and has replaced what the Church of Jesus was meant to be. The bottom line is, God may be calling His people out of her “false church”, so His bride will not take part in the sin of this wicked substitute and so His bride remains pure for her Bride Groom. The time is drawing near and may we all be ready for our Lord that gave His life for His Bride, His Church.
God help us to be like Jesus…
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goes into the mountains, and seeks that which is gone astray?13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
There are varied reasons people leave a body, as evidenced by the many comments. However, following the metaphor of the church being a “body”, closing the “Back door” is unhealthy. I believe the church should have an open and welcoming “back door” for things (people) that have entered which do not agree with that body: whether because the of doctrinal or philosophical disagreement. If you leave, just DO NOT be publicly divisive. IMHO
Perhaps the comments to the blog are a microcosm of the issues with church membership. A good article, followed by subjective agreement and dissent; rabbits chased for topics irrelevant to the discussion; hurt and past failures carried into the mix; genuine desire to do more; great wisdom and a little foolishness and arguments based on Biblical truths and personal preference and depending on the side of the fence, a muddy line between wrong and right.
Sound familiar? It should. It’s the state of the church. We’re trying to live out the Gospel and build disciples all the while trying to please people who may not necessarily be as serious about the same Gospel we preach, and certainly not as passionate. On the other hand there are entitled leaders with a superman complex not representative of Christ when he said he that is ong you that wants to be your leader, must first be your servant.
We have an open back door in the church not always because of what’s happening inside it, but rather what’s not happening outside it. We’re trying to fix broken people from within the walls when many of them aren’t interested in a passionate commitment we both need and hope for from them,
It’s not in or out, good or bad. We’re trying to fix this issue in our comments almost with an either-or mentality and it may really need to be a both-and.
Let’s grow disciples AND let’s reach people who aren’t ready to commit but still have a place. And yes, you might lose some to the back door but the inward focused church will soon have no one else walking in it.
I’m not trying to be a wordsmith. I love the article and I’m just ashamed of how Christians argue about how to fix everything when it doesn’t suit their liking, that’s all.
Because the people on the other side of the door are watching us, and this is EXACTLY why some of them aren’t coming in. Ask them.
Thom did.
Kris, you nailed it.
I find it interesting that you give “I would not support the building program” as an example of entitlement mentality for those leaving a local congregation.
It has been my experience that the building programs created by and for most local congregations are the HALLMARK of entitlement mentality.
“I want a nice Sunday school area for my children, with good play equipment.”
“I want a coffee bar so I can get boutique coffee between SS and Worship.”
“I want a fitness center”
And on and on. Nothing says “pay your dues and get a country club” like the building programs so popular for the last 20 years.
And yet you point to those of us who object to God’s money being spent that way as the ones with an entitlement mentality? That rings false with me.
Katherine –
Your point is well made. It was included in my blog to illustrate someone leaving because he did not get his or her way.
Thanks for this post. This is something that needs to be said – and said again. While those who suggest that this is a leadership issue have some point, as there is always a need for developing effective leaders, to assign the problem to leaders alone is to fail to address the culture of consumerism that exists in contemporary Evangelicalism.
I walked out of 2 different Churches over 25 Years ago
I always loved Church since I was 6 years old, I even kept going when we moved.
I was Babtised at 12 all by myself at our community Christian Church, They didn’t care that my family was poor and Mom was not A Religious Woman, They welcomed me and I wanted be just like them. I’m in my 60’s and I Will Tell You the Church has changed for the worse, They don’t teach the same God that I know, I Never hear of his goodness for giving to the sick and needy or feeding the hungry and helping the less fortunate because it’s the example he left of his good works, The Christians are mainly focused on getting into heaven and serving a Pastor who is only there for
big $ and they are not following God’s Example , They don’t help the homeless and turn on long time members if it puts a $1 in there pocket, This I have witnessed also, They are focused on Political GOP/Republican agenda and it’s effecting the Country
And family’s , What Happened to God’s Words!!
Morals and doing the same as the Lord , I’m not ok with this hateful selfish mindsets Of gossips in the Born Again New Believer that has replaced my Christian values and My God ! I’m a giver, I don’t hate anyone , I will not put versus because you changed all of there meanings , I Pray At Home Now, A lot of people are. We are leaving because you worship the opposite of God and his example. There’s your true Answer,
Glad to see this matter addressed. In SBC circles– what are the numbers: 17 million members and about 5-6 million who even attend?– something is wrong at the core! You set forth some good and helpful points as to ‘closing the back door’– However, I believe the main problem is the common view of the FRONT DOOR… which you were at least ‘hinting at’ as you spoke of the ‘dumbing down of membership’…. BUT THE ROOT is the reality that in the average Evangelical/Bible-believing church pastors and personal workers lead folks to ‘say’ (supposedly pray) a prayer and then the person is PRONOUNCED SAVED. Rare are those who are waiting for the Holy Spirit to bring conviction, (John 16:8-11). Thus, there are too few true conversions. I fear that far too many are Baptists and other Evangelicals but not born again. For as long as I can remember, we have guaged our ‘success’ by the number of baptisms we have. Maybe we would do well to remember that the 5000 converts on the Day of Pentecost were folk who, because of the indwelling compelling of the Holy Spirit CONTINUED STEADFASTLY in Bible Study, Worship, etc.
It is valuable not to generalize the reason why people leave a church. For example, God may have work for them to do elsewhere. After all, the church grew as a result of people going different directions (Acts 15: 36-41). It is important for leadership and people in the church not to have an attitude that it must be the “other person’s problem.” Perhaps we as Christians need to spend time understanding and loving each other, praying for one another, and exploring ways to grow in caring for the Body of Christ. Having made those points, it is important not to lose sight of the valid points of the original post. We need to serve each other with grace and humility. To that end, let’s think the best of one another (1 Corin. 13:7), which is an area I am working on myself. We, as Christians, really need to stick together!
I was listening to a sermon by the late Dr. Adrian Rogers, and he spoke of those who come to church and say to their friends after the service “Well, I just didn’t get anything out of the worship service this morning.” Well, let me share a little secret with you. “It’s not about you!” The question is “What did you bring to worship?” Of which I say Amen.
I have pastored one church for 20 years, in Anaheim , Ca. People leave for many reasons. Remember, 6% of the population in your city will leave, move, or relocate, each year, which includes our churches. I have had reasons such as “Oh, well, I ‘m not growing”. I’m like, really? Though the leader never comes to trainings, classes, Leaves early from service. Then there’s the toxic” people. All we can do is love them. And steer them into the fellowship, and be helpers in ministry. Yet, at times if they persist. Finding negatives in everything. After being corrected, or instructed. Many times they’ll choose to leave. My wife in the past. Passed on due to cancer. I have now married 6 years after. Our new scenerio is this. I had a core of women leader’s who helped me pastor the women. Towards the end, they were not doing as great, as i had hoped. Now, I have my wife. Been married 11 months on the 18th of January. Just a loving, ministry minded gal. Well those same “faithful” women are having a hard time, understanding, or allowing my wife to lead, without being critical, in their subtle ways. Though she is in the ministry regardless. Has a good attitude, and continues to grow. I love them and their families. They have been in battle for the Lord, and me for a great season. Yet, it is a time of change. Good change. Now our church has a pastor’s wife. Though, I know my wife is still growing and adjusting. See, its one thing for those women, to be in a core and do the work of the ministry. Yet, now, they have someone who can see exactly what they’re doing. Whereas, I couldn’t do that. And they do not like that. One of the women, who has recently left, made a statement publically, which to me epitomizes their sentiment. “Well, I have been here for 19 years! And, I am not going to listen to her!” Though my wife doesn’t push her weight around. The issue with the woman is control. Yet, besides those, who have left. Hey, allow them to leave. If there’s issues that “you” must address. Then do it, privately with them. If there’s a wrong on your part. Be human and humble enough, to apologize. Yet, if they’re vehementl;y bitter. Love them. Encourage them. Be positive. Pray for them. But hold your ground. God has called you. You belong to Him. It is His work. Sad to say, those who we’ve been dealing with are those who’ve been around many years. Maybe its the 20 year itch. I don’t know. I had a couple recently, not married. Where the girl has been around for many years, and multiple churches. The guy is a new Christian, with potential for ministry. I had told my wife what was going to happen, because of their relationship. And it happened! Anyhow, when they approached me. I told her. For she is the power in their relationship. ‘Hey! God wants us to be happy! It’s ok to leave. May God bless you! The pastor over there is great. He’s a good man.” They simply stared at me in disbelief. Remember, as someone has said. Keep building. It took Noah 100 years of that. But then. it began to rain! God has a plan for you. For every person who leaves, God will bring multitudes, without an agenda. Maybe, not realizing? They are doing you a favor, in some cases. God has not called us to be bitter, and cynical, at the church’s every decision. He’s called us to be servants. If you must at times repioneer. Hey, no problem. Do it. For isn’t that what we’re called to do, in our whatever it takes mission? Anyhow, sorry for my long post. Maybe it’s because its the season I’m in. Yet, the best is yet to come. Thank you Thom, for the article. Been very helpful.
one other idea: resurrect the church covenant…re-write it….involve the church in it…then adopt it…and ask everyone to sign or affirm it as a prelude to all new members doing the same after a new members class.
The entitlement issue, though it’s maddening, should also evoke some compassion in the clergy and staff for a congregation containing individuals that’ve continually been rewarded with attention and favors for financial support or even service. The visibility of that continual practice infects generations of “prominent” families and the whole congregation. Congregation-blaming can be a knee-jerk response by leaders that is as unhekpful as church members saying, “We’ve always done it that way.”
We must try and remember that many of the congregation (a word that too often stereotypes the individuals within it) are also sick and tired of the entitlement and preferential treatment that have become a practice in their church over the years.
I was the founding Pastor of a church that grew to average attendances of 850, multiple staff, award winning facilities, yada, yada. We were very outreach oriented in the early days, but got away from it. Over time the church became more inward focused, a country club if you will. Aa the founding pastor with nothing but good will I thought I had enough chips in the bank (trust) and strong relationships to redirect the churches focus. I was wrong! I have often compared myself to the club pro – thought the members were my friends, trusted me, followed my leadership. One day the club pro shows up and announces to the club members that the mission of the club is changing. It will no longer exist exclusively to serve the needs of its dues paying members. We are going to become more outward focused, more like the salvation army.
The members didn’t say anything or complain but in relatively short order they got rid of the club pro who had been serving them for 20 years and replaced him. I lived out the story of the little life saving station metaphor that became if the club on the beach with all the symbolism associated with a life saving station but few any lives were being saved. Balancing these tension in the church is an incredibly hard task, nearly impossible. For whom does the church exist? The outsiders have no voice, no vote and they don’t pay the bills.
Three passed a war broke out between the XP and the board, the board resigned and left and eventually the church went out of business and the facilities were sold by the bank to another “life saving station.”
I speak from experience. I was in the pulpit for over 17 years and then I walked out the back door. I was not waking away from the church. The reason people leave is because they are running away from God. I left because of selfish sin. I wanted my way, not God’s way. Why did the prodigal son leave his father’s house? That is why people leave the Church. Thank God I came to my senses and returned. For those that are leaving, PRAY that they come to their senses.
Thanks for your honesty. This is helpful.
I am not a Pastor, but i am a Christian member of Presbiterian. As i am over 51 years old i was observed some phenomens would like to post and should be help one issue can be stay in all minds and reflect about that. I have found by myself with young pastors. My comments are not focused on the fact that they are young pastors. If you read Titus, understand that councils predicates by Titus, makes no reference to men, women or children, much less relation with the age of those who have the talent or that he was elected, chosen by the Lord to preach his word, but a line temperance, understanding and perseverance, this reasoned in their scriptures. But when it comes to rebuke many do so, in my view, misguided. What do using human power to reprimand? The strongly do? Imagine being scolded all weekends in front of everyone, like a child, as if there were not learned anything in life, nothing vivier community, nothing in relation to serve, not to lose humility, even in the midst of so spread around the world arrogance? Hear sermons like “if you think the Church eh a place to have peace, to seek refuge, this very wrong here … you will not hear things to calm your heart, here you will not find much comfort and less quiet. … ” Honestly, every time I read the Bible, I do not see this form of rebuke … I see the dissemination of the love of Christ …. the form that was part of the greeting of the Apostle Paul: “Grace and Peace” … think about that on the departure of church members, think about it and contain much temperance in being in the predications, in order to transmit the Gospel. This a small contribution, hopefully help pastors and brothers in Christ. Grace and Peace!
An excellent article. We’re all called to make disciples. If leaders aren’t (first) modeling this, and (second) equipping their members to follow the Great Commission, we’re missing the boat. Unfortunately, we’d rather “break off” of the local body and go somewhere that our “needs” can get met. This post inspires me though. I think of 2 things: John 6, and Ephesians 4. In John 6, we see people walk away from Jesus when he challenges their commitment. In Ephesians 4:16, Paul says “From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.” We’ve got to realize the investment and accountability that being in the body of Christ requires. Again, great article!
Dr. Rainer,
This is a well-stated post. Thanks for it.
We have a word for the problem you’re referring to: “consumerism”. Consumerism is a massive hurdle. Part of this, of course, is because our culture is so broadly consumeristic that people have been trained to think, “I’ll do whatever works for me.” As many have said here (including yourself), we need to teach people to think differently than our culture. The church is a family, after all.
But it is also hard to expect our people to do otherwise as long as our ecclesiological methodology reinforces that consumerism. What do our multiple services with demographically-tailored musical styles communicate if not, “You can have church your way”? When my church stops being “my way” then, what’s to stop me from getting up and finding one that is? And that is only one example.
I suspect that we are now seeing the effects of the dominant church growth idea of 20+ years ago: the homogeneous unit growth principle. When we’ve custom-tailored our churches to the people, it is only reasonable to expect them to keep wanting custom-tailored churches.
Anyway, again, great post. This is obviously a multi-faceted issue and I appreciate your wisdom here a lot.
Andrew
Someone Tell Me the Story
I went to a ‘workshop on worship’ once at a local church that was wanting new applicants for the choir. It was a day long event – but Jesus was rarely mentioned and Biblical worship was never examined or defined. The whole thing was about how if on the worship team we would need to keep the congregation from being ‘bored’ and how the goal was to sound like music on the radio with syncopated beats and appeal to youth. Around the same time, I pitched a couple ministry plans during an open call for ideas- and was flatly told by the elder in charge to ditch the idea of helping out home-bound and impoverished church-goers and should instead focus on my theater proposal as ‘no one would volunteer for the first since it wasn’t entertaining.’ The church put in a fancy coffee bar for the youth and a slightly less fancy but free coffee cafe’ front and center. Everything started getting shiny new branding and colorful posters, and football paraphernalia took over the kid’s classrooms and hallways. Etc.
Consumerism can be a huge problem, but as you said, if leadership encourages that consumerism they can’t really complain if they attract a lot of consumers meanwhile many people who want the meat of the word leave out the back door.
Why would people leave a church where the Pastor and 1st Lady serve as Covenant Partners with all new members. They call and pray for them each and every week, and teach New Members Orientation. The pastor knows 95% of all of his 587 members by name. He calls and prays for every member twice a year in January, and July. He never spends one dime of his love offering until he also calls and prays for every request that is placed on the envelope. He leads a godly lifestyle, and has not brought any shame or scandle on the church in his 25 years. He trains men for ministry, and teaches and preaches 4 to 5 times each week striving to nuture the people of God. Yet we still experience the Back door problem. Over 600 people have joined our church in the last 5 years but less than 100 have remained with this kind of hands on ministry. Some people tell me that they do not want a pastor who is connected with them at that level. Help me figure this one out!
I’m a 30-something year old single woman and I’ve been part of the same church since I was a toddler. I also attended a fairly well known ultra-conservative college. The entitlement thing sounds familiar as I meditate on different reasons why people have left my church over the years. We have lost a lot of people in recent years; We’re just a fraction of what we were when I was a kid. We had the same pastor for 32 years; He retired and now travels preaching in other churches. The new pastor is someone who originally came to us close to 20 years ago when he was attending our local university. God called him to preach. Many years, a few churches, and three kids later, he’s now pastor.
Some of the reasons I’ve heard include wanting to be in a church with a singles’ group, not liking our conservative standards. not liking the new pastor, wanting another pastor like our previous one (not understanding that there is no one else like him!), finding fault with everything, etc. etc. etc.
It’s kind of interesting that you mention the entitlement thing because it reminds of a conversation I wish I had never been part of (even though there was really no way to escape it!). A woman whom I always looked up to was gripping about stuff in the church when she made a comment about reading the church constitution. She said that if people would read it, they would realize they are entitled to certain things. I did my homework and found no such thing. Shortly after that, this lady and her husband left the church, after they sowed a lot of discord and verbally attacked our pastor in front of the entire church.
For people looking for a new church, I would recommend keeping a list of things that you need/want in a church. I think it would also be wise to keep a list of things you absolutely will not tolerate in a church. If you are going to leave a church, you should pray and seek wise counsel and only leave when you have clear direction from God to go somewhere else.
Dr. Rainer:
Good thought provoking post as the comment trail (which I just read the WHOLE thing) indicates. As you stated their are valid reasons for separation and change and a short blog post, no matter how well written, can only scratch the surface.
For those invalid reasons what has helped me in recent years to understand people and minister to them, as an elder in my church and long-time christian, has been the work of Tim Keller and CCEF (Christian Counseling and Education Foundation). Keller in his books and teaching along with CCEF training has helped me see how people deal with the idols in their lives, values they worship above God and Godly community. Thus as I understood the idols in my own life, that caused me to worship things tangible and intangible other than God, I could have compassion, while not condoning, the broken behaviors of people in my circles. And it gave me a language to both challenge and encourage.
Therefore from an idols perspective, your analysis of an entitlement mentality is spot on. Entitlement is the idolatry of self. One way which I comprehend those entitlement decisions is along three lines, Religion, Relationships and Truth.
Often, people leave because of the “religion” that is practiced or not practiced. It is a sub-culture and taste decision that is valued over relationships and truth. Also, people leave because of “relationship” issues whether with other members or leadership regardless of agreement in doctrine-truth. In both “religion” and “relationship” cases, people leave because they do not want to grow in grace, forgiveness, forbearance and service. Here the idols of power, control, comfort, and approval come into full play along with destructive emotions. The NT letters are very much about Paul and Peter imploring people to put love for each other above issues of “religion’ and problems in “relationships.”
Are there churches that abandon the truth of the Gospel and thus force doctrinal dissent and separation? Yes, but in my travels within Christian circles, I’ve found this to be the exception rather than the rule.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much Tony.
I pastored for many years. People have to follow their God and their conscience. I had rarely, in my opinion, seen people leave for ‘good’ reasons, but that’s on them. We all have to walk our own walk. People have their own needs and expectations, and when they feel they are not being met they seek to meet them elsewhere. Why wouldnt they? It is their life….their walk, and they have to walk it out. What do I do as a pastor? I preach the Word and serve the Sacraments. These are the means of grace, and these are the means whereby we grow up in Christ. I am not the Holy Spirit to them. I cannot keep them. Of course the leadership of the church should seek ways of ‘doing church’ in a biblical manner all the while. I preach the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit and leave the results to Him. And I try to follow Christ and hope that’s good enough for everyone else.
I agree with the premises but I think there are two things in play. For some it is an entitlement mentality, but for so many people it is a “Consumer Mentality.” They treat the church like a restaurant. Come when they are hungry, eat, of the “service”‘is good leave a tip, and then don’t bother coming back till they get hungry again. Or church is like a doctor, lawyer, mechanic, or any other business providing a service. A couple is getting married and need a pastor for the wedding so they start coming to church and after the ceremony they disappear, or a parent is dying with cancer so they start coming to get help through the crisis and because they need someone to do the funeral. Three weeks after the funeral they disappear….until the next crisis or event in their lives they need the services provided by the “church”.
Your “Consumer Mentality” comment makes me wonder why some people are even in ministry. Why would you care for what reason they are coming to church if you really was in the ministry to be the extended hand of Jesus. It sounds like you only want the ones who are going to do everything like you want them to. By being there in their time of need, it may effect their soul in eternity even if the conversion comes many years later. I have said it many times before and I will keep saying it, the people in churches today do not love one another , because we do not see the love coming from the pulpits. If you love people you would be so honored to marry, them, bury them, or sit with them when they are ill. Nobody expects ministers to be super humans, but some have put themselves above their people . None threw hundred dollar bills at Jesus feet as he preached, and when it started in our churches, heads swelled. And the truth is, we can hear great sermons on our t.v’s that teach us Gods word, and we do not have a church who is building more building every year so they can be bigger than the one down the street. And we all know every member is expected to give far and beyond tithes for the building programs. By what you said about the weddings and funerals lets me know why as an older couple going to new church they are not even particulary friendly. Guess they are afraid we will die and they would be asked to do a funeral. Really sad.
Isn’t the solution a bit simpler? Luke 6:31 says, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” We can tell them that they should not act selfishly, but wouldn’t it be better if we showed them? If they say they aren’t being fed, should we tell them to be happy with the meager diet we are willing to give them and, if not, to feed themselves? Or, should we show them God’s unmerited and unconditional love and spread a lavish feast before His flock? If we could show them the face of Christ, wouldn’t they be astounded at how much God loves them? Wouldn’t they be amazed at how much their free gift of salvation cost God? Wouldn’t they finally learn that it is far better to give than to receive? If we need to complain, shouldn’t we take our complaints to God? But, should we? God can take away the burden from the church, but if He did so, the church would have far less opportunity to serve Him. Church members aren’t perfect, but they have to learn to love like God loves, and there is no better place for them to learn than in God’s church. Let’s not just tell them – let’s show them how.
My reason for leaving a church I had been an active member of for 11 years was the denomination’s (United Methodist) policy of “itinerant ministry.” A Bishop or District Superintendent assigns pastors to churches every year during “annual conference.” This is done “prayerfully based on the needs of the local churches and in consideration of the available pool of clerics.” Well, not really. It seems to be done on the basis of what churches are the most influential (read “most wealthy”) in the conference. Some churches keep their pastor(s) for many years while others get “re-assigned” every four years or so. If you’re in one of those churches you get a new pastor and everything changes just as the old pastor’s vision was beginning to be realized. There is little consistency from one pastor to the next. The mission and vision are always in flux, and nobody really knows which direction the church is moving in. After three “re-assigned pastors” in 10 years I’d had enough. I don’t have an axe to grind with the UMC. How they do things is their business. (and tradition) It just didn’t work for me OR for the local church I was a member of. It is in serious decline and may not be around in 5 years if there is not a solid turn around.
I think two things have to happen for a church to retain members: 1) New members need to be involved and have some sort of responsibility, whether it is teaching a class or updating the marquee. I think on some level, many people WANT to be involved in serving in some way. We all have different gifts, and it is a joy to be able to use them. 2) New members need to find a “group” they belong to. We all want community. When neither of those needs are met, it shouldn’t be a surprise when people leave. So, I see it as both a leadership and membership issue: if the leadership can’t find a role for new members to fill, and other members don’t accept newcomers into their community, it’s only natural that people will drift away.
This is an offensive blog to anyone who has served in the church, worked hard Monday-Friday and then turned around and served countless hours in the evening, and week-ends. While our pastors have Monday off-we do not. Who has the victim mentatlity here-the pastors and leadership, What a destructive sling at the church. Here is the “pew” perspective. Pastors and church leaders are a clique. They are no more servants of the body-they are paid professionals. They want high boundaries around their lives (as they preach about community), they do not want any unreasonable demands (as they preach about sacrifice), they want people to give sacrifcially (while they get pastors discounts, tax relief, places that will let them come and stay for free), they preach accountability (while they have none), and on and on it goes. They no longer recognize that people are out serving Jesus day in and day in their homes, at their office, in the hospitals, etc. The pastors are the ones who have defined as service as how much we work “inside the church”-that was never the Bliblical model. Sorry-this is disgusting,
As a layperson who has spent much time in church work over the years, I appreciate your willingness to make the statements you have. Far too often, professional, paid church workers from pastor to custodian are the recipients of extreme favor – usually by well meaning congregants who are insecure and trying to work or buy their entrance to heaven. The problems you describe can be better understood if we look deeply into an AA directive to admit our part in the problem. It is easy for the layperson to see the self-service in the paid clergy. As a layperson, I must admit to occcasions when I either participated in or failed to confront the pampering of members of the clergy. The clergy is no more immune to the temptation to believe flattery and accept attempted bribery than are we non-clerical sinners. It is not unlike the quote from the old commercial for Shake-N-Bake: “We helped!” I suspect that you will be considered a rebel by making your statements publicly, but problems are never corrected without exposure. It is important for the congregation and laiety to be honest – and open with each other regarding perceptions and suspicions. Great problems become solvable in the light.
I’m not sure what experience you have had in church. I chose a path in ministry where I will be working full time and serving in ministry for the rest of my life. This is due to being called to serve in rural communities.
While I have had the opportunity to serve with some great people who worked 40+ hours a week and also served as volunteers and mentors in children’s and youth ministry… usually between 5-10 hours a week. However, dedicated “lay leadership,” for lack of a better word, is a very, very short list.
The vast majority of people in church that I know personally get severely bent out of shape if they are asked to help out with more than a Sunday and Wednesday schedule and there is little or no accountability. On the other hand, when I was “employed” full time as a youth minister, I never had Mondays off, and I can remember the phone ringing at 2:00 in the morning at times of crisis need.
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse; Recognising and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church by D. Johnson and J Vanvoderen.
If you google ‘spiritual abuse’ there are hundreds of sites on the subject with explanation.
This is why people are leaving churches. Abuse.
Excellent response! IMHO … the list in the original article is far too general and very limited as to why people leave organized religion and their suggestion of possible solutions, although I can agree Thom has a heart that seeks to rectify …. May Father empower him according to HIS will and purpose.
Truly Spiritual Abuse is one of numerous reasons and a major one. Back in the 1980’s, “The Shepherding Movement” was prevalent, for example, (why I was led out). Those who started this movement have repented openly, via Charisma Magazine.
Many who ‘go to church’, do so looking to ‘hear from God’ or because someone tells them, ‘come to our church, we have a great out reach ministry, or come to my church we have a worship worship service, or Sunday School, or…… whatever it is the person inviting them likes best about their Church. I would suggest if he does not do so, that Thom would find out the ‘expectations’ and encourage those who are a part of their ‘church family’ to do the same and possibly use that as a starting point.
Many begin going because they are have dysfunctional ways of being and thinking and are in need of having the spirit of their minds renewed and some ‘assume’ they are ‘suppose’ to go to ‘find God’ or ‘to get saved’, or ‘to learn the bible’ or because to do so is what you do to be saved, ect ect ect. There are as many ‘assumptions’ as their are people.
When those in Leadership abuse their role, (either as wolves in sheep’s clothing, or due to deception), they leave behind many who say they will never go to Church again. Let us never say never because Bless You Father, Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of our Faith and the Holy Spirit is our Teacher and Father has an unfolding plan.
Many who do not ‘attend’ Church have servants hearts and the Holy Spirit within them is moving in loving ways through them to reach those in the “Market Place”, (as Ministers of Reconciliation) crossing their paths with the ‘family of God’. Such ones are growing under Father’s gentle hand one on one, as they are conformed into the Image and Likeness of His Son and are empowered/equipped with His Spirit of Truth… they are seeking to Love as they would be loved, they are seeking the Spirit of God to Teach them and empower them, they no longer look to man or an ‘institution’ which is full of inherited traditions of men; many of which go unquestioned, due to preconditioning.
Some who have been abused now move with the gift of healing. Some have the gift of spiritual discernment operating through them and through the Holy Spirit as their Teacher, are empowered to expose false Teachings. Some of them are a vital part of their community feeding and clothing and visiting those in need, praying as moved, without having to be taught ‘of men’ to do so, they have a Pastor’s heart (Or Teacher, Evangelist, Apostolic, or Prophetic Heart) and are moved by motivational gifts without having to be ‘trained of men’ or having to have an “Official Title” or the Financial support of men to do so.
Father led them out ‘of the back door’ because some ‘Churches’ are teaching “religion” and dead works putting burdens on the people they were called to equip, because their Leaders are blind to the reality they themselves serve with a “Pharisaical Spirit” and in the doing have not entered into the Kingdom of God nor are they encouraging others to enter into HIS rest; too often they leave them feeling ‘condemned or heavy in heart for they can’t ‘do enough’ to please Father. Such a one often feels ‘disconnected’ from their ‘head’ Christ. In such cases the body of Christ is not built up but torn apart.
“He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church. Their purpose is to prepare God’s people to serve and to build up the body of Christ. This is to continue until all of us are united in our faith and in our knowledge about God’s Son, until we become mature, until we measure up to Christ, who is the standard. Then we will no longer be little children, tossed and carried about by all kinds of teachings that change like the wind. We will no longer be influenced by people who use cunning and clever strategies to lead us astray. Instead, as we lovingly speak the truth, we will grow up completely in our relationship to Christ, who is the head. He makes the whole body fit together and unites it through the support of every joint. As each and every part does its job, he makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.”
Excellent response! IMHO … the list in the original article is far too general and very limited as to why people leave organized religion and their suggestion of possible solutions, although I can agree Brother Thom has a heart that seeks to rectify …. May Father empower him according to HIS will and purpose.
Truly Spiritual Abuse is one of numerous reasons and a major one. Back in the 1980′s, “The Shepherding Movement” was prevalent, for example, (why I was led out). Those who started this movement have repented openly, via Charisma Magazine.
Many who ‘go to church’, do so looking to ‘hear from God’ or because someone tells them, ‘come to our church, we have a great out reach ministry, or come to my church we have a wonderful worship service, or fantastic Sunday School, Youth Group or…… whatever it is the person inviting them likes best about their Church. I would suggest if he does not do so, that BrotherThom would find out the ‘expectations’ of their visitors and encourage those who are a part of their ‘church family’ to do the same and possibly use that as a starting point.
It has been my observation over the past 50 years many begin going to a church (not even sure which is the right one if they were not raised in church or already have the habit to do so) because they are have dysfunctional ways of being and thinking and are in need of having the spirit of their minds renewed and as seekers go to church for help initially and some ‘assume’ they are ‘suppose’ to go to ‘find God’ or ‘to get saved’, or ‘to learn the bible’ or because to do so is what you are suppose to do to be saved, ect ect ect. far to many reasons to ever be listed. There are as many ‘assumptions’ as their are people.
When those in Leadership abuse their role, (either due to deception or as wolves in sheep’s clothing), they leave behind many wounded who say they will never go to Church again. Let us never say never because Bless You Father, Jesus is the Author and Perfecter of our Faith and the Holy Spirit is our Teacher and Father has an unfolding plan whereby He keeps us in the faith as the ‘church who is a living spiritual organism’, even those who do not measure up to the standard the “American Church System” projects is the ‘right one’, to the ‘world’.
It has been my observation many who do NOT ‘attend’ Church have servants hearts… the Holy Spirit within them is moving in loving ways through them to reach those in the “Market Place”, (as Ministers of Reconciliation) crossing their paths with the ‘family of God’ for fellowship in the Spirit, (outside of a church environment). Such ones are growing under Father’s gentle hand one on one, as they are conformed into the Image and Likeness of His Son and are empowered/equipped with His Spirit of Truth… they are seeking to Love as they would be loved, they are seeking the Spirit of God to Teach them and empower them, they no longer look to man or an ‘institution’ which is full of inherited traditions of men; many of which go unquestioned, due to preconditioning … many of which teach ‘theory’ and/or ‘doctrines’, which have become corrupt and leave those who are seekers confused, hence another reason they leave seeking His Truth for themselves elsewhere. Truly the face of the Church is changing, it is becoming more Christ like: http://www.enterrest.com/Gods_Vision_For_His_Church.htm
Some who have been abused, now move with the gift of healing having been healed. Some have the gift of spiritual discernment operating through them and through the Holy Spirit as their Teacher, are empowered to expose false Teachings. Some of them are a maturing vital part of their community feeding and clothing and visiting those in need, praying as moved, without having to be taught ‘of men’ to do so; they have a Pastor’s Heart (Or Teacher, Evangelist, Apostolic, or Prophetic Heart) and are moved by motivational gifts without having to be ‘trained of men’ or having to have an “Official Title” or the Financial support of men to do so, because Christ as their Head, is operating through them as the part of the ‘body’ they are connected to.
In some cases, Father led them out ‘of the back door’ because some ‘Churches’ are teaching “religion” and dead works (seeking to earn Fathers unconditional love), putting burdens on the people they were called to equip, because their Leaders are blind to the reality they themselves serve with a “Pharisaical Spirit” and in the doing have not entered into the Kingdom of God nor are they encouraging others to enter into HIS rest; too often they leave them feeling ‘condemned’ or heavy in heart for they can’t ‘do enough’ to please Father. Such a one often feels ‘disconnected’ from their ‘head’ Christ. In such cases the body of Christ is not built up but torn apart.
Some in Leadership forget it is Christ who makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. They see their role more important than need be, forgetting ALL are servants of Christ through Christ within…. this does NOT seem to be the case with Bro Thom …. thus I rejoice with our Father that he is seeking HIS wisdom. My prayer for him is he has a listening heart and encourages the family of God he is connected to to have the same, lest they get caught up in ‘working’ for God rather than serving as the Bride of Christ:
http://www.enterrest.com/Receiving_A_Listening_Heart.htm
“He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church. Their purpose is to prepare God’s people to serve and to build up the body of Christ. This is to continue until all of us are united in our faith and in our knowledge about God’s Son, until we become mature, until we measure up to Christ, who is the standard. Then we will no longer be little children, tossed and carried about by all kinds of teachings that change like the wind. We will no longer be influenced by people who use cunning and clever strategies to lead us astray. Instead, as we lovingly speak the truth, we will grow up completely in our relationship to Christ, who is the head. He makes the whole body fit together and unites it through the support of every joint. As each and every part does its job, he makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.”
well said. when you hear in the news about children being molested by priest, or a 19 year old being kicked to death by pastor, mother, sister, and we are told we shouldn’t go to the police? really? these, i know, are unfortunate extremes, but, there are other levels of abuse in church like sexual harrassement or bullying the has left bruises on my young son’s back and i’m told to “just pray for them” or forgive them. when i has addresse the latter problem the person said to me “well, why was he down there”? get lost!
the other things are: stop treating people in church like projects where as soon as you think they have measured up to YOUR expectations you drop them like a hot potato to move on to your next mark.
women who go to church without their husbands do not have leprosy, but still have
gifts they’d like to use.
get rid of the cliques. you are not “all that.”
stop manipulating people to get what you want. manipution is witchcraft.
if you as a pastor have commited adultery and married your cheat you don’t need to be preaching and telling others how to live a Godly life.
you on pesdastles. you may not help being up there, but my question is-why are you still up there.
arrogance! the reason why this is in the church is because no one thinkes they need to go to the person they hurt to say “i’m sorry, forgive me.” thus the body of Christ cannot be healed.
and when i’m told, because i don’t go to church, that i have no value and anything i have to share is not important and they don’t want to hear why i don’t go, forget it
Interesting comment about the pastor committing adultery. Sadly, most churches wink at sin, give a pastor a six week paid leave of absence and then reinstate him as if nothing’s wrong. For those of us who don’t agree with that, we’re told how unloving, unforgiving and hateful we are when nothing could be further from the truth. Some sins disqualify a man from serving in the ministry and sexual sins are at the top of the list as far as I’m concerned.
The poor church member who takes such verses such I Tim 3 seriously as to qualifications for an elder are run out of the church for holding to them. It’s truly sad how sin is winked at and those of us who don’t support it are the bad guy, not the one who has sinned.
Lack of feeding a servant can cause that servant to leave the congregation (local church). Many years ago I was a member of a small (about 30 members) American Bapist Church in the California desert. I was Chairman of the Deacon Board, Church Treasurer, and teacher of the adult sunday school. About a year after we had hired a new pastor, I realized that my roll was all input and not being fed at all. The pastor was not preaching sermons that spoke to my needs or the needs of my family. As a result I started a search for a new church home. I visited about half of the churches in town — I even enjoyed a couple of months of services with the local Church of Christ congregation, but could not stay with them because of doctrine. Eventually, we moved our membership to the local Southern Bapist Church, with a membership of over 500 people. The pastors there fed us spiritually, and I eventually became one of the adult sunday school teachers and shortly before moving from the area became a deacon at that church.
I know it’s been a while since your post, but I’m curious. What was it about the church of Christ doctrine that you could not accept?
I switched to a new church, same denomination, nearer my home, and volunteered for the Evangelization Committee and the Personnel Committee. There had been a call for volunteers for the latter during service, and my many years of hiring and managing seemed to make me a good match.
I got no responses, no interest in my serving.
I switched back to my old church.
Great post, Thom! The church (the people of God, not the buildings) live in a consumer-driven culture. Unfortunately, we have absorbed that paradigm, uncontested, as true. Thus, our behaviors follow the pattern of a consumer even with our church involvement. As you point out, the only antidote to this culture is through a deeper understanding of God’s plan for His church, as made clear in Scripture. Of course, we don’t see the Bible calling us to be God’s “consumers” but servants of God and each other. Our focus needs to turn outward (servanthood), rather than remain inward (what have you done for me lately?).
Pax,
Joel Lund
Thanks Joel!
http:/www.batteredsheep.com/ There are many many more.
Thanks Phoebe
I find it funny that no one comes on and says, I left a church once because I was a selfish jerk. So, I will. I left a church once because I was a selfish jerk. Years later and now people leave the church I lead. Sometimes, it’s because they are selfish. Sometimes it is because a mistake made in the leadership (including, but not limited to my many mistakes). But I’m learning from Bonhoeffer that a person’s wish dream of the church has to be destroyed by the grace of God. I’m learning that we have to love the church with all our faults and stupid decisions instead of loving our ideal of church. As I understand this more and more, I realize that the 1,000s of mistakes we make as a church, within church leadership and within the body of Christ as individuals reveals how desparately we all need Jesus Christ.
I’d be interested in posters who have left churches in the past and who now say, “Yeah, that one was totally understandable, but still, it was on me.” I’ve been there. But I haven’t found (or lead) an adequate–much less perfect–church yet. Thing is, I gave up looking for that. Now, I’d like to sing and pray. Hear some Word. Throw myself at the foot of the cross–especially each time I find myself thinking I’m better than someone else, that I have a better theology or understanding of the Bible or whatever. Lord, help us all.
Jay –
Your response humbled me and convicted me. Your words demonstrated both transparency and humility. Thank you for being my teacher today.
That is the fundamental problem right there. What I have found in the world is most of the time when someone makes a mistake or behaves badly they take responsibility for that their mistakes/behaviors/strongholds and then they try to fix it. I should also note that most of the people that I spend time with are also well-adjusted. However, what I have found in the church is people make excuses for their mistakes/strongholds/behaviors and then say there is nothing they can do about it until God changes them. You just have to accept them just as they are because of God’s grace. It is time for the body of Christ to grow up and stop trying to abuse and hide behind the grace of God.
There is a way which seems right to a man and appears straight before him, but at the end of it is the way of death. (AMP) Proverbs 14:12
Well. I warned you sir. I shall pray that your tie become crinkled.
I know God he has to be the main in ur churches .
I think that the majority of the time….this is the case. However, it was not the reasoning for our family. We left the church we had been attending for almost 3 years because of the blatant hypocrisy being preached. It wasn’t the Gospel. It was a gospel bent around the Pastor’s political beliefs. It literally made me sick to my stomach. I know that this is prevalent in our churches today and it has no place there.
I will agree with the majority here though that leadership is the key. Empowering your leaders to create more leaders. Discipleship! Too many churches are just a social group for like minded people. It’s all about them and their preferences. When in reality the church is to help seek and save what is lost. It’s a hospital for the sick. Only difference is when the sick get back on their feet they desire to extend the same grace and mercy that was shown to them to other people looking to be healed and set free. That’s how you build Kingdom minded churches.
Elizabeth –
You are correct. There are many other reasons beyond my stated reason in this blog. And your reason is certainly valid. Thank you for your faithfulness.
I’m a single person in my 40s who was a member of a church which I regularly attended for two years.
Because of a personal issue I was unable to attend for four months. No one noticed my absence. I pointed this out to an elder but was brushed off. I needed guidance and encouragement (maybe even chastisement) but was left to fend for myself. Shortly thereafter I decided to leave the church.
Thank you, Dr. Rainer. If we get people to attend our church, using a consumer-driven strategy, why should we be angry at them and shocked when they leave, since they have found a better product? I have seen this in church planting, as we market our new church as “cooler than your grandma’s church”. I think much of this comes from our “upside-down” mentality of wanting to “do church” , more than “be church”. How much of the average church’s time, energy, staffing and budget goes toward the two hour, Sunday morning event? The early church did have an attraction, but the attraction was not an event, but in their genuine devotion to Christ and a loving, caring and giving of the lives to one another and the world around the. This produced favor with God and man.
Bill Hybels said this in a recent interview. Thought it was pertinent to the conversation around retaining members:
“In the early days of Willow, when someone showed spiritual movement we would congratulate them and point them toward a ministry where they could serve or a group where they could get to know other people. But we didn’t instill a strong awareness that, more than anything, people need to know how to relate to God through his Word, and how to hear His prompting. How to navigate a day with Him in your head, in your heart, at your side—and all of that. It’s a deep regret I carry.”
Thom, thanks for writing this post. I agree with it completely, but I see some real challenges I’m hoping you and others can address.
We in the U.S. live in a consumerism culture, and so most churches speak the language of consumerism when marketing their church or even individually invite their friends to church. We talk about how inspiring the music is, how powerful the preaching is, how engaging the children’s ministry is, how much God and our church can help them experience a more fulfilling life. I’m not sure that there’s anything wrong with this, but the end result is almost everyone who enters a church door does so motivated by self-interest. And certainly if were trying to reach unbelievers, this is what we should expect from someone who is not following Jesus.
But then once someone starts participating in church we want to teach them “It’s not about you.” That is certainly the truth, but… First of all, it’s no wonder that people get stuck in the “what’s in it for me mindset” when it sounds like we’re regularly trying to sell people on what’s in it for them. Second, trying to change people’s mindset feels an awful lot like a bait-and-switch. How can churches appeal to the needs of unbelievers and challenge people towards self-sacrifice at the same time?
+1
It primarily is a leadership issue. Un-use, misuse, abuse or neglect of people(the Sheep)…all of which call the pastor/leaders to be better and more than are…which means a greater true reliance upon Christ and that leader’s humility & submission to change. We need to fix us first before we can help fix them.
The problem is more basic – the church has become an endless fountain of meaningless platitudes. We tell the unemployed people that “Jesus loves you” and then walk away unconcerned that they cannot find survivable work. We elect wealthy “businessmen” to church leadership positions and don’t understand why their employees stop attending the church. We violate what is taught in the Bible while following the latest business management and marketing fads. The actions of Christians in endorsing the political “right wing” while ignoring the sins of greed, maliciousness and hostility towards morals held by those politicians contribute to the losses in the church. When we say we are for the “right to life” but only apply that to the unborn we are showing hypocritical values. If a person has a right to be born, shouldn’t we also be concerned that they also have a right to receive the medical care necessary to stay alive?
Some of the reasons mentioned by others are valid, but demanding that overworked people do more in the church isn’t going to work. We’re already trying to work multiple low paying jobs just to survive – and the church doesn’t seem to care about our life struggles. All we hear is “Work harder in church” or “give more money” from those well “ministers” who make quite a bit more than we do and who seem to be “grazing on the flock” instead of leading it!
AMEN AND AMEN
You are spot on with this blog. I have been at my current Pastorate for 4 years and have been using the tools you listed to gently move my congregation from this intitlement mentality. I have seen three groups emerge from this effort. The first group understands that the move from intitlement to servant is an issue of survival. Not only of survival but for growth. They are clearly on board. The second group is unclear about the need to change. They will trust you to a point but need lots of your time to ask questions. They may move from this group to group 1 or group 3. Your ministry before them will lead them to group one. The third group sees your efforts as an affront to tradition and to the very history of the Church. They follow 3 paths. They will remain and attempt to stop your efforts, they will remain and be apathetic or they will move on. Those that move on will nearly always move to a Church that will satisfy their need to be in the intitlement environment. I believe the intitlement mentality must be addressed in a broader way.
Dr. Rainer,
I am giving a sermon soon on this subject and have found this quite helpful. May I quote you?
Many Thanks,
Absolutely. Thanks for asking.
I have read many of the post and I agree it really has to do with the attitudes of those on the top. As a secular college professor I noticed that you listed one of the reasons for leaving a church is because someone is not getting fed, which you consider to be entitlement. I do not believe that this is entitlement. These people are going to hear the Word of God and if they leave malnourished or famine week after week what good did it do for them to spend their time there. I have a responsibility to my students to teach them something. That is why they are in my classes. The students pay a lot of money to learn and when they are in my presence that is exactly what they should be doing. If not then I need to do a better job as a teacher.
If the church expects people to be there for them than they should be there for you if not, it will definitely led to burnout and resentment, which is what I have seen reading many of these post. Personally I quit church and moved onto to make sure that my needs were met. It is not the churches responsibility to meet my needs that responsibility lies with me. If churches are lacking love I have found that someone else will provide me with the genuine love that I need. You actually made me laugh, because a country club is exactly where I was able to find the support, genuine love, and fellowship that I needed that was missing in the church. I would rather take my tithes and offerings and pay my dues any day of the week. Who knows maybe they are also Christians who have left churches. I know one thing they have a lot of spiritual fruit :-). There is always something going on almost daily. They follow-up and contact you and everything.
Renae –
We who lead churches need to read your comments closely. I think we can learn a lot from your perspectives.
Thanks for taking time to comment.
Dr. Rainer,
You are welcome anytime. It is not about entitlement. I believe that people are more bible literate than they have ever been. I know personally I have study and read bibles from cover to cover many times. You read about the church in Acts and you look up and say I want to be a church like that. The Acts church was very unique, because the people stuck together and work together. It was not every man, woman, and child for themselves like you see now, but this was written that it would happen in the last days.
I remember very clearly that the people were so concerned about Peter when he was in jail that they would not even let him in the house when he was outside because they were praying so hard for him. The Acts church was a not selfish church. There would never be a need for me to go elsewhere to meet my needs if I could have found what I needed inside of a church. I spent years praying about it that God would lead me to a place where I could grow and thrive, not burnout, as well as, be a blessing to those around me. This was the place that I was lead. Just as Dinah could not find what she was looking for in the house, she went out and Shechem came. It was a bad thing in a way, but whose fault was it? One thing about Shechem he loved Dinah even as Jacob had not loved her mother.
The gifts and callings are without reproach. Not being in a church does not mean that I cannot be a witness for Christ if anything I can now reach those who need me the most. It does not mean that I have fallen into sin as some of the comments mentioned above. That is another post in itself; because my salvation is not based on my church attendance my salvation is based on my relationship. When I get to Heaven I will have to give account for my own soul and actions.
Have a Great Day,
Renae
There you have it; the state of the future North American Church!
I wish I could email you separate of this blog. I find much similarities in what you discuss. It is rather sad that one kind find more fellowship, genuineness, and authenticity in secular life areas/domains than that of a church organization/congregation. Perhaps, one day, those of us who have recognized this can gather and become a body in Christ that represents such characteristics? I pray.
Thank you for being authentic.
Dear Brother Thom,
The “open back door” — how many decades have we been talking about this in the Church? We keep naming “trees” in the “forest” but the “forest” seemingly continues to be ignored. Look at the seven “direct quotes”. Look at the Main Reason: “an entitlement mentality rather than a servant mentality”. What do these scream to us?
ARE THE PEOPLE WHO LEAVE REALLY SAVED?
The question is NOT “Why did you leave?” The question IS “Why are you here?” … and that question applies equally to leadership and congregation members. 2nd Corinthians 13:3b-5 is instructive.
In that light the 5 suggested steps at the end of the article take on new meaning. Especially in Steps #1 and 2 if we change “church membership” to “salvation in Jesus Christ.” I know it is difficult to think that John 3:16-18, 36 and Romans 10:9-11 can be “dumbed down” but it happens all the time. And the results are those open back doors.
John 14:15-17, 15:5.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
PS – In referring to people who leave I am not including those led by the Holy Spirit to go and serve in another church. That happens … usually after a long period of prayer and discussion and with an open explanation as to why they are going.
Wow, I even read entitlement in the comments.
Here’s what I’ve learned:
1. It’s about others not me.
2. I need to be a big boy and feed myself.
3. I treat my church like every problem is my responsibility, no one else’s.
4. Since I’m crucified with Christ, I don’t have opinions. What matters is that Jesus becomes famous and people come to know Him. If I get ignored, great! That means people aren’t taking up their time with me when so many more are dying, headed to hell.
Paul
So the gist of this message is: Its the sheep’s fault. Those bad sheep are just spoiled and entitled and didn’t want to serve. If the sheep have wrong ideas about what consititutes biblical christianity, then its those who teach that ought to examine themselves; pastors, if your sheep still think its all about them exclusively after attending your church for several months, better take a second look at how truly bibical your teaching is! I do agree that entitlement is a problem today; scripture does say that in the last days men will be lovers of self, boastful, proud, arrogant, revilers, etc. But the gospel properly taught confronts sin. It would be wise to make sure the sheep are leaving because they are truly refusing to accept solid biblical teaching that confronts sin and brings repentance and not because they don’t know the difference due to lack of that teaching.
How about folks leaving churches because of a lack of integrity in leadership? I cannot tell you how many times I have seen pastors sin against people for no other reason that that the person somehow seemed to trigger some undealt with issue in the pastor’s life. I know one pastor whose first wife left him. He became involved in “counselling” a couple who came to his church. The couple had both been divorced before. He decided the wife was “just like” his ex wife and another woman whom he disliked and began to treat the husband as if he was the pastor’s best buddy and golden boy, and treat the wife in a way that can only be characterized as spiritually abusive. The wife respectfully confronted him after quietly enduring this for some time, in a biblical manner. He openly “dissed” her in a way intended to let her know how insignificant she was. He did not acknowledge his sinful behaviour or his issues but actually began taking cheap shots at the wife from the pulpit. The couple left the church as a result. Abusing his pulpit to spank folks he disagreed with was fairly common. Yet this man had cultivated an image of near sainthood in his community and had followers singing his praises. This kind of behaviour is quite common despite almost universal denial in the christian community. One wonders why it is that such as these, who preach the gospel are unable to preach it to themselves in such a way that when there is some out of control flesh, it is recognized as such. Why do these not know how to bibically examine themselves? One wonders just what is being taught in today’s seminaries that so many men are entering the ministry as a way to obtain the validation they seem to be in want of or as a way to make their mark on the world. Perhaps a few generations ago, it would have been reasonable to assume that most likely the pastor was a godly man, and the complainant just someone who wasn’t admitting to having a problem attitude, because some years ago, the church wasn’t infiltrated with psychology and feminism but was usually pretty solid bibilcally. Many pastors today autmoatically refer troubled sheep to professionals for counselling issues and not even christians fairly often. What do you make of that except unbelief that scripture is sufficient? My point is that before you go conveniently blaming the sheep, lets make sure we aren’t following the all too common tendency of christians to be allergic to reality and to prefer denail and avoidance, ie emperor’s new clothes.
Great point! This deserves a standing ovation!
So glad you brought into your great info about small groups. Whether it’s Sunday School class or greeting or mentoring, the most nurturing I have found was through fellowship in small groups. I also think you absolutely have to have leadership with a servant heart. Jesus, the Son of God, showed us all what a leader should do first and that is to serve. Through leadership showing a servants heart while that serve gladly (as opposed to grumpily) and fellowship though small group(s), a member is more connected; often serves in some way through that group and that connection helps keep them coming back. I have never become a member of a church without first getting involved in a small group, usually Sunday School only at first. I am 61 years old and have only been a member of 3 different churches in my life and those involved moving as being the only reason for changing. Had I not served or not been nurtured, would I have stayed? No, I probably wouldn’t have ever settled in and taken root.
I teach Pastoral Theology at Piedmont International University. I plan on sharing your five steps on closing the back door with our future pastors. Thanks for the insight.
Thanks Tim!
I think people leaving the church can be caused by the parishioners, the leaders and God. People are people with issues, hurts, needs as well as gifts talents and skills that require leadership. As a teacher, I once was told, if a majority of your students are not getting the grades, then you must look to the teacher. It is the teacher/leader’s responsibility that they somehow “get it”. Then sometimes, God does lead people from a church to another – and we may never know why because his ways are higher than ours.
Still as leaders, we look continually for the best venues to keep our people from drifting out the back door – such as in small group ministries where people get into each others lives. We have led/taught small groups for over 3 decades and this really does make a huge difference in keeping the back door closed. One of the comments above was that the leaders never helped or ministered to a person in need – and this is part of what the small groups are for. We hear specific prayers and concerns in small groups. In a small groups we know when someone is hungry, thirsty or in need of shelter – or simply needs a hug. If our small group can’t do it alone, the leader turns to their leaders for direction and help.
I understand the “entitlement” thing as well – it is out there. Still, when someone is alone, hurting or depressed – they need someone to come alongside – I don’t see this so much as an entitlement issue; but as a lack of caring from leaders on some level. When we choose leaders, are we making sure (caring enough?) to ensure we have a fair blend of the Spiritual Giftedness amongst our leaders? If someone is in need and no one offers love and caring support in a tangible way – I would say, yes, it is easy to suddenly realize as the needy person, that you are alone. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to know that a lack of attentiveness would not be hurtful – and not in God’s plan. The hurt person sees the hypocrisy – why should they stay?
We also need to find proper responses for when they do leave – but in any ministry, this will occur. In a sense, leaders carry their own sense of entitlement and get defensive when folks leave. Once a couple left because they realized living so far – 50 -60 minutes away did not allow for their family to get properly involved. So they sought a closer congregation. This is legitimate – yet, they called and told the pastor and he was cold and huffy. Good grief, folks.
We need to be leaders – provide the infrastructure – and let go with love when necessary.
When leadership has an “entitlement” mentality themselves, then the sheep are sure to follow. I agree with this post. Leadership is called to equip people, God’s people for the work of the ministry. That they to may lead in their homes, communities etc. Get to really connect with your congregation, don’t assume that if they don’t attend every service, that they are not faithful. Guess what maybe they don’t have gas. food or maybe they need to put their child to be early to get to school the next day. The list can go on.
This article left me wondering about the many pastors who leave churches. They will say that they are being ‘called’ or something similar but so often those ‘callings’ are to larger churches, or to churches offering a higher position (such as from youth or assistant pastor to lead pastor), or to a more interesting ministry opportunity – all of which seems a lot like what us laypeople would simply describe as career advancement. Yes, church members do leave churches for greener or better pastures, or pastures more to their liking, but pastors quite frankly, do also. I also was left wondering about pastors who feel great entitlement to the lives, time, and finances of their congregation. I spent many years in a church in which the pastors insisted that as God’s anointed they were entitled to slavish attention and service. We cooked, cleaned, shopped, shoveled snow, mowed and manicured lawns, provided child care, maintained and repaired vehicles, groomed pets, etc. for them because we were taught they were worthy of this and that the service would help us to be more like Jesus, the ultimate servant. We also were required to give significant portions of our income (far beyond a tithe). It was all about proper stewardship and recognizing that God owns all we have, but it worked out to keep them abundantly well provided for while many of us had to utilize the community food bank in order to somehow keep our households together and our families fed. You are very right about the attitude of entitlement, but it is not just a church member problem which pressures and wears out pastors. Pastors also sometimes operate with a sense of entitlement which fatigues, discourages, and burns out church members.
Maybe some people leave the “worldly, religious, man-made, man operated, business so named “church,” becaues the Holy Spirit guided them into the truth. Maybe “some” are actually being led by the Spirit, and not by the world and the way of the world. 1 John 1:1-4; John 14:15-17; John 16:13; Romans 8:14
I am on the verge of giving up on church and actually my faith and need help so badly. Thing is I love God, love worship and love being in His presence but for a very long time now I have has some really bad experiences with church especially my spiritual head that make me wonder whether God still loves and cares for me and whether He still considers me as His child because I look to my pastor as God’s rep and/or mouthpiece and I literally take it as what he does is endorsed by God. Lately, my pastor has been almost very cold towards me. It started about a year and a half or more ago and has just escalated. My family members have noticed it too. When this treatment started I went to him and asked if I had offended him in any way to which he answered that I hadn’t. I work in the children’s ministry, praise and worship team and in the up and coming dance ministry. I am the only person he treats that way in my teams, he is very involved in lives of the others wanting to know how they are doing with various projects but just shuns me and I just get discouraged every time I am around him or spend some time around him because of this cause it just feels like you are being told without words to ‘go away’ and you are of no importance or consequence or almost like he has something against me. His wife lately has also started treating me that way. I already have been treated with contempt and despised at home and still live in these conditions and there is no where to go or turn to. I go to bed in tears and wake up in tears and just feel so much sorrow and pain from being treated so badly by others especially my spiritual authorities cause I never dreamt they would or could do that and I am just so discouraged Trusting people and being open and vulnerable to people right now just scares the living lights out of me so I have kind of become withdrawn and my self confidence and esteem right now is at the lowest point in my life. I am scared to change church too cause I don’t know where to go and what to expect plus I have been here so long and developed roots and all….feels like being in a bad marriage to me. I need help seriously so I can hold onto my faith.
Olivia I am so sorry to hear that you are experiencing such pain in a church and at home, because God’s intended purpose for churches was not to cause pain and emotional abuse. However, I can speak to it, because I have also experienced similar treatment in churches and by Christians. I actually had a pastor do a Simon Peter denial of me as he had done Jesus even though on three separate occasions he ensured me that he would be there for me. He did it multiple times, because I would not extend him any trust initially. Over time I extended him some trust as he earned it. Once he had establish some trust he did me just like Simon Peter and denied me except he was not in the garden he was in my face and acted like he did not know me. He was a hot mess.
First and foremost, I want you to know that God still loves you. Nothing can stop the love that God has for us. Paul said it correctly nothing can separate us from the love of God. “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:37-39 NIV
Secondly, I want you to know that the pastor is not God they are just human beings and are subject to make mistakes and sin. You would think that they would act more like God, but it is not always true. They get caught up in life just like everyone else and start spending less and less time with God and you begin to see more flesh than spirit. Take for example King Saul. At first he treated David well only to later pursue him and try to kill him repeatedly until his death.
Lastly, the one scripture that has helped me the most through it all is a portion of Song of Solomon 6:3 NKJV “I am my beloved’s, And my beloved is mine.” Persecution especially persecution in particular emotional abuse in churches and by Christians tries to make you lose your identity. As believers we need to know who we are for ourselves and our identity should not be tied up into anyone else, because people can and do fall short. The moment that they do if our identity is tied into anyone other than God we will stumble and fall.
I saw that you work with the children. I have also worked in children’s church and understand the attachment and responsibility associated with working with young people. I am encouraging you not to fear anything, because God did not give you a spirit of fear, but instead of power and a sound mind. I will stay prayerful for you about your situation. If you research emotional abuse you will find plenty of resources that may be helpful for you. Copyrighted 2013 Renae Mintz
I am sorry to hear about your pain. No one deserves to be treated as inconsequential or with any kind of dishonor. Changing churches may be a short term but not long term fix. I sense a pattern of being dishonored and treated unGodly. This is from satan. And it opens the door to victim hood which signals other predators in the spirit realm. You could do all the right things and still get what you do not deserve, held to a higher standard than others, mistreated by different people causing you to question yourself e.t.c. In such cases most likely a predator spirit is at play. Fixing usually involves revealing when doors were open (mostly by parents, teachers, siblings e.t.c), unGodly coping tact tics (read sinful attitudes or styles) you unkowingly have adopted, revealing and renouncing hidden resentment or bitterness and chasing unGodly sprits in Jesus name. I wish you the best dear. God Bless
Hi, Do you think that people are just bored with church services????
Maybe its it is time for a change from with in church government. People do not want lectures they want GOD.
They want prophets in the pulpits and not mascots.
Church leaders are not to sit in judgement of those that do not stay in structured churches they are to be the greatest servants of all.Remember church is the gathering of the Gods people born of the Spirit. Church is not the charade of 3 songs and a lectures from a pastor who assumes it is his job to do so.
Easy to put the blame on those who leave. Pharisees know no wrong,they have kept or the “rules”. Please rethink and pray through some more your conclusions.
God Bless.
Groan…Always easy to denigrate the poor souls who “the stone throwers” think are not as enlightened as them.
Thom, Just happened upon your site. You gave a lot of reasons for people leaving and not coming to church. I think that you forgot the most important one, a lot of preachers are republican party politicans. If laws could change a persons heart Jesus died needlessly. My bible tells me in 2 Cor. 5:17 that Christ and only he will bring us a new life. All of this social issue stuff is only stuff and it turns people off especially our young people. Our young people have friends of difference races, different nationalities, people that are poor, sick, hungry, needy. They do not want to hear a preacher speaking bad about these people. They also like to be told the truth of science which a lot of pulpits seem to be negative about.. So many churches you enter never talk about the red letters of the bible. The Apostle Paul said to preach Christ, and Christ crucified. These things I talked about are why lots of people don’t want church., change has to occur to bring them back .
I know a lot of people have left churches because of money; heads of auxilliaries asking for money for pastor appreciation through the year, paying dues to be in the choir or the women’s board. One member didn’t have money to do all the extra things, or buy meals or pay $20 a month for a year for his “dues” for the pastor appreciation service. I personally don’t like being “forced” to join an auxillary where I will have to pay dues.
the thing about church is peopel are being tought from the bible which is the old gospal which was closed what the leaders and pasters have to do is teach the church members to use the bible in the same way they use a manual or cookery book as a referance to help guid them on the right road . so that the new gospal can be written . to many people think that mirricals are going to happen like they did for mosse and Jesus but what they are forgetting they truly did Gods will and didnt excpect any thing in return but to day so many people not just ones who go to church dont want to do any thing unless they get some thing back and becaus of this they are gaing a cold heart and moving further away from our lord even if they think they have been saved or told they have been saved , and to many are being tought that once they are baptized they will gain eternal life but they shouldnt be because to gain life with god you have to go and do his will with no expectations of getting any thing back from man but god him self and they only true way is to have solitued and learn truely about god and all hiden spirits then realize why and what church is all about and not wait for someone to tell them how to act but to act how god tells them but to have a church is giving you strength to do gods will because when you are low in numbers that is when satan stricks and that is what peopel are forgetting . yes i dont go to church but i read study and pray every day ive only ever walked into a church and what i see is they are being tought in the wrong out look also the church has become greedy with the tith as 10% of your earnings isnt and shouldnt be money it could be cloths or beding or food as god doesnt like money but your tithings should and always was ment to help the poor and sick not spend it meaningless stuff God will help the correct church to still stand up straight if people werent greedy and helped each other God Bless
This is not meant to be critical of anyone, but I feel I must say something for those sincere believers that left their church for reasons other than “they felt they were entitled to something…” First of all, you cannot make a blanket statement like that, there are circumstances in every situation that have to be taken into account. I am speaking as one who has left her church of 20 plus years, not really wanting to, but sensing the Lords leading. I was given a scripture by the Holy Spirit, then that same scripture was given to me the next day by someone who called and said the Lord had a word for me. She is not the type to give a word to everyone on a regular basis.
I witnessed in that church at least 30 times public humilation and false accusation spoken from the pulpit. The people involved had never been in a private meeting with the leadership to discuss any problems; the Word of God says we are to meet privately first. They were reprimanded publicly without any warning. This became a regular practice, to the point that members cringed during sermons wondering if they might be next. We were “accused” of being too joyful during worship while they knew about men that were abusing wives verbally and possibly physically and yet we never heard a sermon on that. Please if you are a pastor, I pray that you will hear this coming from someone that had to leave reluctantly. I believe there are many people that leave for selfish reasons, but possibly many more that leave because they can’t sit under that type of leadership and continue to grow spiritually. There is too much insecurity and even jealousy in the church. How can the congregation mature and be fruitful if the leadership is allowing strange things to go on week after week?
Proven members with wisdom and leadership abilities are being pushed aside for young people that are not ready for certain assignments. They are not taught to respect the older people. They are told that they are the “future” and they are, but it has given them a sense of entitlement that only belongs to those that have had not only years of spiritual growth but growth in life in general. I say let the young people watch the older ones first before they are handed a position just because a spot needs to be filled. I guess leadership thinks the young people have to be led by their peers in ministry. But when I was in school all of my teachers were older, some much older than me. It just taught me to respect them. I am attending a prayer meeting and church service on Friday nights now until the pastor finds a permanent building for Sundays. Pray for me because I am getting over the bad church experience and I need to be restored. I still love God with all my heart…that will never change.
We will pray for you for sure. I do appreciate so much your response. You bring out some very valid points. Scripture does bring out the proper order for things and dealing with things in the church. Too many times, human beings get in the way and start, maybe even unknowingly, usurping authority over what God says. Also, it does say in scripture of pastors that they are not to be novices. Leadership in the Bible seems always to point to older, mature, God seeking Christians. Thanks again.
Thank you for speaking up. What a poor judgement is being made here,so insensitive and unChristlike. me and my family faithfully served in a local church for almost half a decade, until we found out the leadership had bad issue that had never been dealt with. A lot of people at our church left because of the abuse,moral issues and pride and strife that was initiated from the leadership. It was very painful watching people being pushed out of church and threatened just because they try to call the leader out for some issues that could have been dealt with if the the leader was honest. So sad to know people in some churches raise their eyebrows and give a cold shoulder after knowing that you just left a church. I say this article about reasons why people leave churches is a very poor judgement and thank you for speaking up.
Rainer,
Regarding why some people are not being used in the church, I would like to point out that often times it can be due to issues of personality rather than issues of qualifications. For example…….I know of a case of a gentleman that always aspired to serve in positions like church service usher or greeter positions, however this same gentleman had the personality and demeanor similar to that of a crocodile.
Another man in our church aspired to be a Sunday School teacher and was also highly educated with several Bible College degrees. The problem with this man was that he overwhelmed his victims one-on-one with his enthusiasm and information overload. Whenever he would get a willing listener cornered he would expound on the details of complicated scripture for as long as you would listen; and sometimes that could be 30 to 45 minutes. After 15 minutes with this guy you felt physically exhausted and spiritually assaulted. Before long, church members would head the other way whenever they saw him coming. This was a man that almost immediately after joining the church, (and because of his credentials), expected to be placed in high profile positions of leadership such as teaching and preaching. But again, as a result of the man’s personality, church leadership was reluctant to place him in these areas of service. He had the head knowledge, but lacked the interpersonal skills, and as a result he repulsed rather than attracted people.
Because of these examples, it’s important to note that one must allow time for a congregation to get to know you before you can expect to be allowed to serve in some positions within the local congregation.
While the facts above as to why people leave a church are valid and some people are just immature and selfish from what I have seen is that elders, pastors and leadership are in crises and many have become puffed up with pride, materialism and a love of money and do not function according to the calling we find in the book of Timothy. The concept of a special ‘team’ has come to the fore and the rest of people are just there to foot the bills of the team. A lot of elders are so far removed from the congregation in so many aspects they do not have a clue of the pains and needs of the people of God. Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23 and in the book of Micah clearly spell out what is happening in many church today. I have seen favoritism and partiality that is sickening to say the least where the rich and wealthy business people get seats of honour and special recognition but not because of spiritual maturity but because of the money they can give. Another aspect is bad and incorrect teaching and bible doctrine that is spewed forth week after week to promote the pastors plans and ideals which in many instances are very far from the plans and will of the Lord and His word. To remain is such a congregation will be a slow death for you and your family. When there is good and godly mature leadership who love God and His people from a genuine heart and show that in acts of love, provision and care under leadership of the Great Shepherd Jesus Christ, people will have little to complain about. Treat all people with respect, mature them in the word and let everyone play his or her part in the body of Christ.
What about people who are asked to leave a churches? Yes, four times. My family has given up trying to go. I would be interested in a blog about special needs ministries and what pastors think of them. I attended church regularly and served in different ministries until my child got too old for children’s church and too disruptive for the service. I was asked to leave Sunday school in a church that has a special needs program. I am not a pew- warmer . Worship, service and fellowship are vital to being a part of a church body. I now live in near isolation. There are over 44,000 families like mine in my state alone. I am praying for God to meet this great need. I am also asking Him if a church plant for families like mine who understand each other is a possible solution. My life will never look like yours. It is unimaginable to typical people and they limit our involvement in church activities as well as fellowship for us. I appreciate your thoughts about this.
Are you sure this is the real reason? I think people are becoming more skeptical.
I use to really hate going to church as an adult, always falling asleep or mom pushing it on me. But then I found a church and I actually learned something and understood what was being said. I love writing about what I learned. What’s even better, I have friends that don’t want to go or can’t go. My friends can read what I learned and learn from me. Every time I go to church, I will be posting what I learned. I guess if I go and I don’t post, I didn’t learn anything lol this will keep my pastor on his toes.. I am by far the hardest person to learn anything. If you go to church and feel that you have learned something… anything positive please share with us. Enquiring minds want to know 🙂
Maybe you might not attend church, you might just read from the bible or learn a positive life lesson you might want to share. All religions welcomed, there is only one God. I just want a positive room. Please feel free to join and share, or simple read the post. Thanks for your support xoxox
-Sheila L Roberts
Jesus was anti-religion, Find God in your life and it won’t matter what religion says or does, because you won’t need it. May God Bless you.
When you are saved you become a pastor, just don’t read the Bible read the Bible and ask for the wisdom to understand it.
The reason I’ve just left my church is that those members “born into it” – ie: their parents, grabdparents- going back, at least six generations, in some cases – see newcomers as a threat, rather than as a refreshing addition to the church.
I took 12 years of hostility, constant critism, sarcasm, and private plus public bullying and humiliation, in a leadership position until I could take no more, which contributed to a mental breakdown, and 4 weeks in a physiciatric ward – where the, mainly, non-Christian, NHS staff behaved towards me in a wonderful caring way that I – rightly – would have hoped from a “Christian” congregation … both newcomers and – especially – those “born into it” who have been more spiritually fed than most people ever will be, having attended almost all their lives!!!
I’m now looking for a church that will welcome newcomers – gently and tactfully involve them, and not overwork and take unfair advantage of their enthusiasm and willing spirit. Also, not be judgemental and critical, as I had been in my last church for over 12 years.
If I can’t find that, then I shall just have no option than to “go to church” annonymously on the internet.
Okay,
I have read a lot of comments here and some are honest but some are simply from pastors
not looking in the mirror.
I’ve been a Christian for about 23 years and served in many capacities. Right now i am in the position
of wondering what the local church is really doing and where i fit without being disgusted at the whole thing.
A little background on church observation. I have served for years in different churches but due to my job have been in different churches at different times and in more than one denomination…meaning i have not stayed in one church for 20 years like some of you. I believe God has used this to teach me a few things about His church (the body of believers) and to carry the burden in prayer.I have lived in America, Africa, Europe and i have observed a few things that has caused pain to a lot of people, myself included.
I have left two churches for different reasons and felt pain in many because of one overwhelming reason. We don’t really love each other. Oh we say we do. “Bless you sister, how are you?” but other than sunday and maybe a weekday, how many people really are in other people’s lives. I’m a minority and have served in many mainstream churches and honestly how do you explain when a welcome committee can never show up in your house, although they oops! showed up in the others that looked just like them? And if they do, how uncomfortable they look!
How do you explain distant politeness but when you ask to go for a cup of coffee with someone they tell you they will get with you but never do but you find out they are mingling with themselves? How do you explain a youth pastor who will not take a minority kid and spent time with him during crisis but will only shoot an email, yet can visit those kids who look just like him? As a minority i write but i see it even among similar races. I think the western culture of wide personal space and individualism plays into this but is this an excuse? We are to weigh everything with the word of God.
You can not fake love and care. People feel it. You can not love people because they fit your image or lifestyle. The rich snubbing the poor (and no I am not poor but i see), the majorities and minorities keeping to themselves etc. Look at your inner crowd and judge your hearts.
Another thing. All these seeker friendly church programs where the seasoned christians are continually fed milk and milk and milk so that the new ones aren’t offended and leave does not sound biblical. Yet a lot of pastors do it, claiming to be “reaching the lost.” To the point of calculating just 10 mins of praise and worship, a light gospel and dismissal. It has to be fun!! Everything deeper is stealth because we want the babies or atheist to be comfortable and see that “we are alright!”. There is no power of God, no fruit, no development. It literally kills the zeal of the mature and we leave.
programs, programs, program, all taught in seminary but no power. Had a friend dying of cancer and no one from a church she attended for 7 years came by other than once with a bouquet of flowers. Until she died then they came to say, “oh she’s in a better place and we brought groceries.”
I live in the south right now. Some people have never ever invited a different race into their homes for fellowship, yet will contribute money for Africa. We see it and we leave or we stay and pray. Yes I am African in America so I observe as a third party looking in. And you wonder why you have country clubs? Who are we mocking?
I looked at my friends funeral and if not for friends she has from her country, the church would have been almost empty. Big churches of 800 or more people, hallelujah it is growing!! But growing into what? Stop pastors and really look at what you have. Most are country clubs.
That’s why people leave. Yes there are drama oriented people but I have met a ton who leave because they are not really loved and because they simply want to grow and that’s an honest need. And they find the true meaning of love when they finally say No to working and working and working, no to what a pastor says because they are uncomfortable or tired, or they find out when crisis comes and the church never had a benevolence fund, never came over except to bring a bouquet of flowers.
Oh and what do we prayer and caring ministers find out while serving all these seeker friendly people? The church is full of stunted growth, people who the devil can flick with a finger and they are down, have no strength, full of illnesses and no fruit of the spirit (no joy, no peace etc) but hey they have been listening to the milk for YEARS. Yet when you bring a solution, someone feels threatened or checks with the tradition of the church or…fill in the blanks.
Aren’t we tired? Thousands of people coming out of seminary every year, fully eloquent, fully trained, bookstores lining every street, a church every few blocks, a gospel we read of power but where is it? So we excuse the absence of power since to find it will require time on our knees and full surrender or oops even the fact that one might need to reassess their ministry calling, by saying God says no, or yes or maybe or one more sermon or an interpretation of scripture that is confusing. And yet intrinsically in the true believer we sense there is more, that something is wrong somewhere.
A lot I wish I would communicate to the leaderships and believers but i think i have said enough for someone who really cares to go to their knees and pray to God fervently and honestly tell God to show them the truth of the gospel, not their denominational truth, not their traditions but straight from the heart of God because right now something feels old.
Hello again Doc. Saw another blog here and I will make my response short and sweet. I left the church based on your #7 most talked about blog post, which was my first comment on our site here today….PASTORS SALARIES.
Somebody told me once, I should become a preacher because I have my military retirement, run my own fitness business, care about people and I know the most important word that people need is the one word talked about the most in the bible…..LOVE. It’s what Mr. Graham always preached about and even his son Franklin when I volunteered back around 2001-2002 as one of their Adult Counselors when they came to my town.
So, if folks can become preachers without a salary, I will go back or if I don’t, I will start my own church and show the PROPER MODEL of how a pastor can run a church without getting a salary, it can be done…..remember, priests have being doing it for years in the Catholic Church.
In my experience the reason that people move to another church is because the vision of church has changed from inclusive to exclusive. The minister, in order to establish the church as he envisions it, often excludes some groups in favor of increasing another group of members. The Blend service, as I understand it, is supposed to be inclusive but can end up excluding those who are older and without children to teach them the new format that is being taught only to the very young. Fortunately, the emphasis on small groups by the Methodist Church allows those feeling excluded a chance for support by the church family. In my experience, the concept of small group membership has been the strength of the church when members are feeling excluded. The members are able to support and care for each other in their spiritual and physical development and hopefully do it in a way so they can grow. The example given above sounded very child-like but my guess it was simply a plea for inclusiveness.
I left the church because I realized it’s all hogwash ancient history.There is no evidence to it’s truth. If “feel it in your heart” is truth, then how do you decipher what’s in your heart apart from what’s in a Jew’s heart or a Muslim’s heart? I wanted to be a better christian. So I cracked open my bible, to read it cover to cover, instead of random chapters. The bible is contradictory, god in it is malevolent and genocidal, it supports slavery and never once retracts, it says women are lesser and one of the most praised “righteous” men, Lot, offers his daughters to be raped instead of his visitors. I really could go on for a very long time. Compare it side by side to the Quran, and it is the same thing.There is no evidence of god and I realized how harmful fairy tales can be when you actually believe them to be true. Most of us were raised christians, but that’s because of our families. Had we been born elsewhere from different parents, we’d be their religion. By time we were adult enough to ask questions, it was too late– Already seems normal and you’ve heard every last apologetic. The church asks people to be willing slaves to a sky lord. Do you know any black person who ever volunteered to be a slave? Or anyone who wanted to move to north korea to serve a dictator? One who will punish you for not loving him back? or working on a sunday? (punishment for breaking sabbath, in the ten commandments, was death…that’s your god? Who will send an evil rapist to heaven for “repenting” and turning his life around but then send me to hell for simply not believing in him, or for “taking his name in vain” or for having sex according to my own will? How is that freewill? That’s: do as I say or be punished. Ask yourself…what reasons have I been given to believe besides feelings? Besides confirmation bias? What questions have I asked that I received unsatisfying answers for? Why is what I believe more knowable than what other religions believe? That’s another reason people leave the church. A phone call isn’t going to do anything unless that phone call has some real evidence to support the beliefs.
Hiya Amanda……..I completely agree with you….you are not alone in these questions that your hearts seeks as mine does too. I struggle, daily, with many things regarding God. I am holding onto a single thread in all of this. One of my questions is, “why did God create all of these wonderful things, and all of these people, if he knew the outcome of it all? Why would he create people just to have all of us go through trials and tribulations….despair and hurts….misery and evil? Why would he create people just to have so many reach heaven….and then many more have to go to hell? Hell….the place where there is gnashing of teeth and no more hope or love….always in darkness and pain….why?”
I don’t know if I will ever find my answer….*sigh* Hope you are well =)
The immorality of members is one of the greatest causes of people leaving any church. Forgiving a child molester, rapist, thief, etc. does not promote morality. The most immoral people on earth think they are forgiven by Jesus for any transgression. People who do not believe in divine forgiveness tend to be more moral. Why would Jesus constantly forgive adultery or stealing? “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” has no human morality in the concept.
Lower IQ people tend to be the most religious. Nations with a higher IQ rating tends to be less religious and have a higher standard of living. Except for politicians, the more educated a person is, they more liberal their religious beliefs are. The conservative political churches are driving people away in droves. Leaving politics out of religion makes religion more pure and desirable.
Thanks Thom for this insightful article. I’m pastor of a new church and we’re looking to slam the “back door”. We frequently host training for members for spiritual growth and leadership development. This could be a topic we might delve into a bit further. Could you share the statistical analysis and/or research you mention above?
Thanks,
Good article, but I think there’s another side to it that’s comfortable to ignore. As ministers, it’s easy for us to point the finger at those who leave, and claim they are wrong. I think entitlement is an issue. At the same time, I think there’s an entitlement that can creep into a leader’s heart that says because they open the doors and have a service, people should never leave. If they do, they are “spiritually immature” and sinful….when maybe our entitlement is adding to it.
It’s seen really well in the Prodigal Son parable…the son that left thought he was entitled, and then when he came back, you found on that the “old faithful” that stayed and was running the place had the same problem, but was manifesting it in a different way. Most notably, though it’s the same problem, coming from two different sources, it doesn’t mix too well. They usually feed off each other, from the leader to the one who stays to the one who leaves, and all are equally susceptible to it. What happens is a leader or the staying member can almost project a set of expectations at all the work someone who left will have to do to achieve equal status again…they haven’t suffered or grovelled enough for us to welcome them back…like the older brother did. That’s not the way the Father reacted when the son returned, and though we don’t have any conversations recorded while the son was away from the Father, I doubt he spoke with disdain of his son while he was gone in staff meetings or at socials. I think that tells a lot.
Much more is caught than taught…if you are an entitled leader or church member, expect to attract the entitled. As you nurture them in that behavior, don’t be surprised when they leave.
Thom,
Great post. A few years ago I read your book “High Expectation Churches” and found it very helpful.
After reading the book we implemented a PRE-membership class where we explain our vision, mission and expectations of membership. That class has effectively closed our back door. In the last 4 years only a handful of members have moved to another church. Your book has helped us to become a healthy church.
Thank You
Scott
I have a very low tolerance for the “churched”. I surrendered my life to Jesus in 1984. I find the churched to be among the most arrogant, judgmental, ignorant and disrespectful – moreso than everyday people. Arrogant – many times based on degree of biblical knowledge. That is idolatry, and it is unattractive and abusive. Judgmental – critical eyes tend to watch for error, the self-appointed sin police. Ignorant – unknowing people size you up based on their perceived position, and many times perceive themselves as your self-appointed mentor and impose themsleves on you. Disrespectful – Because you only have so much time here on earth, I find that many come to men’s groups and such with their own agenda – to chitchat, to seek “counseling” for pains such as separation and divorce – when we are supposed to be doing a book study, and sometimes they are there just for the food. Yes, I believe in Jesus, but I hate going to church because everytime I do, I feel like I must always be on guard against being molested by some self-appointed do-gooder.
Paul,
I hear what you are saying and I can definitely relate. My own church…..and I would venture to say that every church has the same people you describe as members.
However Paul, all of the situations you describe can be diplomatically and tactfully handled and unfortunately does not hold much water as an excuse to forsake the assembling with believers as God instructs us in His word. I would also venture to say that these same kinds of people existed even within the first church’s established by the disciples. In fact Jesus himself had some encounters with these kinds of folks within the temple.
A wise minister once told me regarding church life…..”Whenever people come together in one place we are going to have to deal with the issues of people being people, unfortunately even in the church”. He went on to say that God in his wisdom instituted the church for many reasons”. Since one purpose of the church is to evangelize the lost , one reason for church life is to teach us to have patience with one another and learn how to deal with all kinds of personalities and situations. Church life is basically a training ground for our Christian development”. Other reasons for the church is to help us to grow in our knowledge of the Word; the church environment gives us opportunities to test our wings regarding our talents in areas of church service. Church life also keeps us connected and encouraged in our faith walk. Remember the coal that is removed from the fire eventually grows cold and goes out.
Yes Paul, unfortunately…..like every other area of life: even God’s church is not exempt from its own share of jerks. But….keep in mind…God instituted the Church for many reasons and the benefits of it far outweigh the downsides of removing ones self from the fellowship of believers.
Kind of like the old commonly used excuse for not attending church; “Well I don’t go to church because the church is full of hypocrites”; and I’m told if I decide to go there will be one more.
And regarding those that come to church and want to unload their problems: remember Paul, the church is a hospital for the sick…….not a hotel for the saints. And don’t be too hard on these folks that need to talk about their problems; you might want to exercise your patience by becoming a better listener, because the day will probably come when you will want to be listened to yourself.
I have come to notice over the years that the vast majority of the people that have these kinds of complaints against God’s church family, and as a result remove themselves out of the church, are themselves very much like the very people they are complaining about.
Dear Thom,
Thanks for your very insightful words. They made me think and reflect on my own beliefs as to why a church loses its members. I agree that in many churches there is an “entitlement mentality”. And I do agree that people leave because they arent being served. However, as a 20+ year, every Sunday usher at our United Methodist church, I have to comment that there is a different way to look at the entitlement mentality – and that is from the point of view of relatively new members in conflict with the older members “who were here when the first brick was laid”. They often believe that their longevity entitles them to special benefits that recent members cant expect to receive… ranging from Kitchen privileges to “that’s my pew, please move down”. This attitude, that there are some who are more equal than others, is very alienating and is the cause of a lot of back door escapes. That, and a church that lacks warmth and friendliness. Ive seen many people come and go – and stay – and our church has worked hard to be a welcoming church and to treat everyone with the same level of consideration – whether they were here when the ark settled or just arrived on a different boat. Best regards.
I have to say Im not a big fan of going to church. I grew up going to a Wisconsin Synod school and all I heard about was the fire and brimstone side, not exactly welcoming. There was also a great deal of pressure put on us kids to give money and push our parents to give money. Again, not a warm environment , so I grew up with a bad taste in my mouth about church. It is now 30 + years later. I started going back to church because my wife started “convincing” me to go. My attitude at the time was “Its only an hour of the week if it makes her happy” While It still isnt my favorite thing to do I dont have the same apprehensions about going to our church now (ELCA synod) They are very welcoming and warm toward everyone. Our church was destroyed by a tornado late this summer and we have been meeting at various places, but I was impressed how everyone stuck together through it all and find myself more willing to help out and give more time because they all make me feel like a part of it. I realize church is largely based on traditions but the old school “Believe or go to hell” attitude is turning off many.. It did to me early. The churches that realize they may have to change with the times will not only help themselves, but it may help turn the tide of the lack of morals we see in our country these days.
Good points, as a self-serving Christian might give reason for leaving a church. However, the article doesn’t reflect on reasons from a devout believer’s departure from a body. There are far too many institutions that conform to fulfilling the social needs of people, preeminent over the called purpose of the Church, the glorification of Jesus Christ through the Good News. Instead of a heart fixed on eternity with an aberration toward earthly delights, there is the juxtaposition of combining earthly pleasures and social pursuits with a biblical overtone, rendering the Purpose Driven manifesto, formally called the Emerging Church. It goes something like this, “Go out in the community and make friends with others, keeping religious metaphors to a minimum. Then bring them to our church family.” Instead of gospel focused church, many have become a social emphasized community. It makes sense from a logical perspective and it works to build numbers in the 1,000’s. However, it is not the method or purpose of the Spirit of Christ, to develop mega-social centers using the banner of Christ as a mascot. Much like a pet sin coveted, these fallacious entities have permeated our communities for a number of years now as the “normal church” of Christendom, while in truth some are a conglomeration of pop psychology, social humanitarianism, and pseudo Christianity. From such, do flee out the back door, for your very soul may depend on it.
While I agree with some of what you are saying….because there are those that do have an entitlement attitude…I do disagree, agreeably, on a lot of it. I have been raised in church…and I have gone to a lot of churches because I have moved…a lot! I have seen a plethora of things going on in the church. We live in a hurting world where people are bombarded with despair, hurts, wounds, issues, trauma, sickness, failures, etc. If someone feels “entitled” to having their pastor be involved in their life then that should be ok. The pastor is the shepherd of their flock and they have been placed in that responsibility of taking care of that flock. The sheep need their shepherd for guidance, support, care, love, safety, truth, compassion, prayer, and to just have someone watch over them. Does leadership get burned out? Yes, they can if the support system is not in place. If the sheep are taken care of, the shepherd is taken care of. The shepherd has wool, food, companionship, community, and a livelihood with his sheep. If his sheep are sick, or stolen by the enemy/wolves, malnourished, or ignored…they will not survive; there will not be sheep. This system is a servant system from both sides. They take care of each other in their own ways. The souls of the pastors people don’t only need salvation…yes, this is important….they need to be nurtured and taken care of on the human level as well. Its like someone posted above….Jesus didn’t come to talk to the well. He came to talk to the sick. He came to the beggars, the poor, the sick, the needy, the distraught, the despaired, the wrong doers, the ones so far in the pit they cant see the light the day…
You mentioned people leave the church “for some need not being filled…” This needs to be elaborated on because what exactly do you mean by “need?” A church isn’t full of those whose cups are already filled. If they are then they wouldn’t need to go to church anymore…or for a long time at least. A church isn’t for those that have reached perfection for that wont happen here on earth….ever! A church isn’t for those that have no issues, traumas, unhappiness, or despairs in life….A church is for the broken hearted….for those that have needs. If someone goes missing for two weeks, and no one notices, there is a problem. If someone gets hurt because no one noticed then they are justified in being hurt. Just a quick phone call to ask if they are ok speaks volumes to people. If someone asks the pastor to call their cousin….then there is probably a good reason. For the pastor to feed them….spiritual food….or even just food….depends on the situation. A church is there to reach out and help their members….if they have a family, or two, that is on the verge of starving should have their church get together and make them meals. If the pastor didn’t visit them…people need to know they are thought of, cared for, loved, and important…especially by their church. You take these examples, and for sake of a short blog, and don’t specify on these examples leaves the door open for all kinds of misconceptions. The leadership has a responsibility….just like the members do. I agree. However, the buck stops with the leadership….that’s why they are in the leadership position. That’s what that means….leadership: the ability to lead others as a direct result of the gifting received from, and performed by the power of, the Holy Spirit. The biblical spiritual leader understands that his/her leadership is one of servanthood. God called them to guide and care for His people…
Now there are a few people that have an entitled attitude, like you were saying, but sometimes that entitlement comes from the leadership not leading. Other times it can come from a self-righteous, hypocritical, arrogant person that thinks the whole world, the church, and God owe them something…but lets make sure we don’t lump these guys with those that are really wanting to be a part of a church that looks out for each other.
There will always be reasons why people will leave a church. The reasons mentioned above are good reasons, but I feel that either there could be more reasons why people leave, or the points mentioned above need to be elaborated somewhat to understand a person’s personal situation more. For me, the reasons why I left the Missouri-Synod Lutheran church my seem personal, but to me they are valid reasons. The church did not feed me, meaning that I did not get anything out of going to church, it was full of back-stabbing gossipers. The members of the congregation were arrogant and judgmental of anyone who did not believe what they believed, yet, the congregation did behave as Christ’s disciples.
Also, because I have relatives and friends who are Jewish and Catholic, it rubbed me the wrong way having to listen to everyone in church condemning people whom I care deeply about. It may be because that is what Lutheran churches believe and teach, but I did not feel that it was for me, so I did have a valid reason for leaving that church. I now go to a Catholic Church, and I believe since Vatican II, they have it in their teachings that they are not condemn or judge others because of their beliefs. Catholics are taught to respect other religions for what they believe to be true. After who are any of us to judge anyone else?
I feel that if there are personal conflicts with people in church, it does not help to get too involved or to make excessive commitments to the church. The reason why I feel this way is because if you serve a church where the members of the congregation don’t respect you or regard you as relevant except for “we need you for _____”. That is how people in a church take advantage of you. So while, it may be a nice gesture to have someone visit me or call me from church, I would rather that it be for reasons of building a TRUE friendship that can be carried out in and out of church, not just find out what I alone can and will give to a church. While I know that we are all supposed to love one another because God loves all of us, anymore, I do not believe that we should be letting people take advantage, or that it makes the church relationships that authentic. It may be just me, but I feel that I am better with small groups where we truly have things in common interests outside of church besides our faith.
I think that if a church has or expects members to serve in the church, it is really important to make sure that each member serving is properly trained (#4) for the job whether it be an usher, choir member, Sunday School teacher, reader, etc, and that it is really something that the people want to do. I think that it is important that people be honest about serving instead of being thrown into the ring. For me, that would be another reason for leaving a church because of being dragged into something that I am either not qualified to do or really do not feel comfortable doing.
My church is undergoing some major transitions right now. There was a huge conflict between the pastor and the church executive committee and now all of the church’s founding members left. I worked as the church’s secretary for a brief time. I worked during the heart of the chaos. Now there are some qualities/habits about my pastor that is starting to really surface. I noticed them before but thought it was due to the conflict at our church. For instance, he micromanages. Anything he gets involved in goes wrong. Because of his controlling nature, this makes it really challenging for leaders to be creative in their innate talents. secondly, he has terrible time management. He expects people to do things in the church at last minute notice. This is now a pattern. He functions this way. He does this with the Sunday morning programs weekly. As the secretary, this puts a lot of pressure greatly affecting my personal and education goals. I deal with people’s attitude, frustrations, and disapproval. Once they speak with the pastor, they act and talk differently. Third, I share a lot of personal issues and concerns with my pastor because of what I was going through at the time. Now I have regrets. What made me most uncomfortable is that he would drag the information out of me then once he has it sends me off my way. Later, the situation is a bigger deal than needed. Fourth, should a pastor compromise a member’s confidentiality? Is his accountability to God a valid reason to share a person’s personal conflicts with others? In the executive committee and outside the committee?
My concern: I am no longer comfortable at this church. I know the Christian lifestyle is not a matter of comfort but my heart is no longer there. I love to be active and get involved in ministries but do not like a restricted environment, a micromanager, or habitual last minute arrangements. The latter interferes a great deal my personal life and others feel the same way.
In the church I attend we have a group of Elder leaders who work as a team in conjunction with the Pastor.
If this were happening in our church I would suggest you take your concerns first to the pastor himself and sit down with him and be frank and honest with him regarding these issues. Talk to him like you would a close friend.
If he blows you off or it becomes obvious that nothing is going to change, or he misuses your conversation in anyway, I would then take your concerns to the Elders. The Elders then can then sit him down for a hear-to-heart and proceed whith him from there.
Could be he just needs a slight personality or attitude adjustment.
Dear pastors pls help me my church but my church no help
I am considering leaving my church due to our church is not being led by our Pastor but by his wife. As time goes by this gets clearer and clearer. Several people have left in the past few years and a few a know have left because of something Pastors wife said or did. As I serve in our church I feel that I am serving the Pastors wife and not God.
Most of the people who say that Church members leave because they have an “entitlement mentality” are usually people who don’t want to have any accountability. They don’t want to make friends or reach out, & look at you with suspicion as if you need to prove yourself. They are already part of an established Church culture with their fake smiles. Welcome to my Church but not in my group.
This happened to me, after a couple of years trying to get involved, in the end i just left quietly. No “exit interview”. Nobody interested when i left.
I’m sorry to say this, but as i see persecution coming to the western world, it will clean up the Church of it’s falsehood. people WILL be forced to stick together or perish.
Good points Michael……I think you are right on.
Scripture talks about a great falling away from the church in the last days, and I believe it will be because of the persecution that you mention. I think it will be the beginning of the seperating of the sheep and the goats prior to the Lords return.
The scenario you describe is very true of a lot of church today since many church’s are in a “Country Club” mindset. Anyone who walks in the door that remotely looks a little odd, is not dressed just right, or their car may need a paint job, may be viewed right off the bat as someone who will probably not fit their “Country Club” criteria, thus litte attention is directed toward these folks, with some members possibly even secretly hoping they don’t come back. This hardly meets Gods expectation of Biblical evangelism, but sadly it does happen.
This can be especially true of the very small rural church’s that were started 125 years ago by two or three families in an area where great- great-grandpa, great uncle Joe, and grandma helped build the original building, and present day male relatives of the original founders still make up the majority of those on the leadership board.
Many times these church’s will experience little growth over a century and can be quite exclusive and very family and relative oriented. Sometimes to the degree that they are actually more of a family gathering place for a weekly reunion than they are a church, making it very difficult from someone outside the clan to make inroads into the church.
That all may be true Hal, but the knife cuts both ways. Now we are flooded with churches who are so much into the ‘dress down’ and water down syndrome, that if someone over 45 years old shows up, well they are just not ‘hip’ enough to come to that church. They are from the old school, and are just tired, old Christians.
The point here is to stop looking at each other. When the new church growth movement came into being, their whole premise (and theology) was to tear down the way church had been done. So while you may be associated with some of the more high society churches, there are equally as many if not more of the ‘Purpose’ churches that commit the same offenses pointed out earlier.
Great ponts David! Very true. …..
We need to give more attention to the church we choose to attend, easy to goto the closest, but does it suit our shape in the first place! We take more time in selecting local doctors and mechanics than where we will take our family to worship – unfortunately there are dying churches – choose wisely! –
also I think people expect that the church will instantly supply them with a large group of social friends and events, it is important you have a good friends at your church – but this takes time and effort – step out and invite people for lunch etc, especially as thom states church attendance is less regular. The main reason I have heard people leave church is – “I come most weeks but never see the same person twice and is hard to get to know people”!
The purpose of attending church needs to be first and foremost to praise and worship God and to bring him glory. Keeping this in mind will help to prevent the entitlement mentality. Every ministry position in a church is important from the head pastor to the lighting and sound crew to the custodian who keeps the church clean for the congregation to use. I think that the idea of mentoring new members to help them grow and find a position of ministry is very good as is teaching new members and believers to have a servant mentality. Jesus who is our example came not to be served but to serve others. I think that the church in America needs more of the servant mentality today. Your blog is helping in this area God bless you for starting it.
Thank you for the open discussion……
Question is Why people leaving the Church? Let take it this way, as a father, Why my son leaving? for that we as parent we have to question ourselves….with Why my son is leaving.What is the reason of his leaving? Am I’m a good role model in the family and so on..we can ask many questions about that….
If we cant value our family members that might be the reason they are leaving…being a Pastors I have learn to value my family members as well as the family of God….
Yes, right on Jeremiah! We love our children and we know that they may leave us to find a better way of doing something and when they find that their parents really do love them, they will return into wide open arms (think prodigal son). The writer of this article sounds like his arms are crossed, unwilling to welcome back those who wander off back into the fold. A missed opportunity due to a hard heart – perhaps the reason they left in the first place.
Solution is found in the bible
God Bless You and Your Ministry,I haven’t been to Church in 3 Months ,Nobody has called me or came by to see if everything was okay with me,,when I was coming up that the way we did things at St Paul,,we checked on our members,why haven’t I attended in 3 Months?,well it’s been 3 months to date but more of a concern of whether I want to continue attending as a “member, I was dealing with something a while back that could have used some serious “Prayer”, a visit, or a call from the Church Leaders would have been so “Greatly Appreciated”,, but it has never happened, to date.have I been back? No, I haven’t,I have been a member of that Church before most of these “Leaders” were given their positions, (I Love that Church) I was Baptized there 46 years ago, by the ‘Honorable Pastor Robert L Huff” (God Rest His Soul),,he built that church( they now reside in today), He started out in a “small church 3 streets over”. We celebrated the Church’s 100th Anniversary last year,. Today, the church has a ‘New” pastor (3rd one),”Sweet Young Man”,he’s been with us about a year, early 30’s, single, the thing is,,my Marriage has “Troubles”,I can’t speak with him about it, he is not Married, he doesn’t speak about “Marriage”, he doesn’t even have a “Girlfriend”, he doesn’t speak out of the Book of Romans, , he will start his sermon with a Scripture, but it always ends up,, “Don’t mind People, because they don’t Matter”, I turn on “Joel Olsteen”,,TD Jakes,, but I do miss being at Church but I have considered Leaving.We as members need that Love,Strength, and that Hope, from our Leaders in the Church,and from our Pastor,,and I tell you,I got through that “Storm” with the help from others ,(unfortunately) not my Church Home,and you question do you want to go back? I have been gone all this time,and still “Nothing”, well, at the end of the day I go to Church to Worship the Lord, not for the people, but it’s sad when you know the “People” there,aren’t “concerned” about you, it’s an “Awkward” feeling and it “Hurts”,,God Bless.
This is so sad really. I remember thinking the other day, if i were sick or dead, no one in this church would know or care or who would show up for the funeral. I almost had a panic attack but then i told myself I would be gone anyway and at least I have my family and a few loyal friends.
I however know that i don’t have people in the church because i know that no one really cares. Like you, i have been gone from ministries I was in, and no one called. Yet when i show up again, they want to pray for me and tell me they love me.
Something has gone seriously wrong with the church. We say Church is the place to worship God. I don’t think so, we worship God in spirt and truth and this is anywhere. Church is for the community of believers to gather together, learn from each other, encourage each other, grow together. we are supposed to be a family, a spiritual family.
Maybe it all fell apart when we started building buildings and getting richer.
My apologies for responding to a year old post, but the relevance to my own John 17 studies caught my attention. I know the post is focused on members of the church, but I couldn’t help but wonder about new members or the un-churched who walk through the front doors. I believe those folks come into the church with a need, and they are looking to have that need met. Many of them don’t even understand the language we speak half the time let alone understand the heart of a servant. They will likely be in the ranks of the narcissistic for quite some time, because many un-churched think that’s what the church is all about. It is for this reason that we need to be very careful of the language we use when there are visitors present. As a worship leader, I caught myself using terms like, “Let’s worship!” and finally got in the habit of replacing that with “Let’s Sing!” Besides the fact that newcomers may not have a clue what the word worship actually means, we certainly don’t want to teach them that the term is synonymous with singing. That’s a whole different topic unto itself, but my point here is, we need to watch what we’re saying to them and let newcomers be a little narcissistic for awhile. Blessings!
There were 7 comments in the article given by those who had left the Church. Three “I’s” Three “Me’s” and one “My” Does that tell you anything? I pastored for 15 years and never worried too much about those who left. Had one couple with a lot of talent in a small Church. They left because of me, but after they left, the entire
Church was better without them.
I don’t know why anyone else ‘decided’ to leave the brick-n-mortar church, just why I did. More than a decade ago, God impressed it on my heart that the church had had the Holy Spirit removed from her due to her many sins. All this was prophesied in God’s Word and God made it abundantly clear to me. Not through any dreams, voices or miracles, quite simply God using His Word alone and in its entirety, opening my spiritual eyes and ears. Nothing has persuaded me since then of a change in God’s command to leave the church.
I agree…….
It used to be when leadership and the congregation were walking close to God that satan had to work hard to worm his way into the church.
Now the church looks much like the world and satan is no longer worming, but running through the front doors of many church’s.
Church’s are accepting more and more the practices of the world and turning a blind eye to God’s Word and open arms to sin.
As a result……God has removed his lampstand from many church’s .
I also know that is why miracles like healing (emotional, psychological and physical) is not going on as well. People like to say God is in the business of healing only with doctors and nurses, like there were no doctors in Jesus time. Also modern medicine is a wonderful thing but people are mostly being patched up than healed, so Jesus wants to continue to make people whole. The same yesterday, today and forever.
From my observation, sin has caused the lack of the supernatural, as well as doubt. To substitute we make it fun. Been in a church where secular music was played. I agree with what you both have written.
Church is boring and I don’t have the time to sit next to a bunch of smelly, gossiping, old, babbling idiots. It’s God job to forgive people. Refining God to one building or 1 priest is giving up freewill. Something I will never have time for. If I go to hell for my freewill then God never loved me in the first place.
I have noticed in the churches we have attended over the course of our marriage, as we have relocated for my husband’s job… a very common reason to leave the church, amongst those whom were close enough to share with us.
People who want to serve and are brushed aside.
I have watched it happen time and time again. Sometimes it is within reason, for example a brand new believer may not be the right person to mentor. But many times that is not the case.
I have witnessed a lifelong believer, who had actually professional training in out reach evangelism have is spark doused. He had become comfortable in his walk, and hadn’t been involved in outreach. After attending a mens conference, the spark was reignited. When he approached leadership, they didn’t bother to even ask what his expertise was. They just brushed him aside.
I witnessed a woman with a degree in Christian counseling being pushed aside from creating a mentor program without any good reason. The leadership smile and nodded at her, but never gave her the go ahead. Never gave her the support.
I watched a woman with a passion for a particular ministry be told time and time again that they couldn’t do more than 1 activity a month because we don’t want to overload the calendar.
It really breaks a person’s spirit to feel God calling them to serve in a ministry and to be brushed aside. And for some the calling will be so great, that they will leave the church to find one who shares that same desire.
One church requires all potential small group and bible study group leaders to go through some sort of extensive class and vetting to ensure they are equipped to teach, but this is only if it’s an “official church study”. So, they don’t care if you want to start up a group with your friends… then they don’t get involved with whether or not you are qualified. But, if it goes on the church calender you must pass the test.
We were very blessed to attend a church that had a yes policy toward ministry. if you wanted to serve, the answer was yes. if you wanted to start something new (unless it wasn’t biblical) the answer was yes. As long as you were willing to put in the work.
I have watched church leadership micromanage the passions out of service. And those are the people I see leaving.
What if you want to serve and have the servant mentality, but the leadership doesn’t want you to serve because someone else with better perceived talent is serving in that position? Is this just another entitlement mentality or is this favoritism on the church’s part? My family left churches in the past and nobody ever contacted us to even see why. No exit interview here. That sounds like entitlement mentality, but actually, our perception was that the church doesn’t have a place for us to serve. There’s no doubt other places to serve, but if that isn’t our skill/talent/passion, why should we serve in some position we are not made to do?
But many times, probably more than we would like to believe, a church member leaves a local body because he or she has a sense of entitlement.
Our 7 year old daughter came forward to her father and I almost 3 months ago at home stating that she wanted to be saved and baptized. Knowing our daughter and numerous discussions over the past few years, believe she is ready. We asked our pastor to talk to our daughter, pray with her, and make sure of her understanding. We informed the pastor of this request nearly 3 months ago as well………a couple of times he has mentioned in passing that he has “not forgotten.” I don’t think this is an issue of our entitlement as much as it has become the pastor’s. I am questioning his servant mentality. I do not understand why this is being put off. My husband & I do not want to attend this church anymore. How many times do you request this before you realize salvation is not a priority with this pastor? And, would that not indicate a serious problem and support leaving to find another church home? We need some direction here. Thank you.
You have indicated that you have approached the pastor several times. It’s now time to go to the Elders of the church with this issue.
Since saving the lost is, and should be, the main purpose of God’s church, this obviously does not seem to be a priority with this pastor for some reason.
I would definitely take this to the leaders of the church first before deciding to leave the church. It could be that this pastor may simply need a little guidance from the church leadership.
As with you…and in our church as well….this would be totally unacceptable.
I believe that at age 7, a child is still innocent. You need to talk to church leadership about it, but I am not sure why it can’t wait a while. The age of baptism has been creeping downward and it may not be such a good thing.
Give your pastor the benefit of doubt. He might not want to hurt your feelings but might have reservations due to the age. As much as I am all for child dedication I am not sure some people are truly comfortable that a child that age truly understands the meaning of the Christian journey, not really. This is understandable.
There is no rush in these things – you can do a dedication for your child and just let her continue in her christian journey until teenage years.
So, I tell my daughter not to listen to the Holy Spirit working within her about accepting Christ and give the pastor the “benefit of the doubt” that she is too young and needs to wait until her teen years? I think this line of thinking is how leading others to Christ results in stagnation, underdeveloped personal relationships with the Lord, and lends to fewer and fewer people willing to serve.
I appreciate your time in responding. This is not a dedication. It is public Baptism following acceptance of Jesus at home.
I wouldn’t want to judge the motives of a child any more than I would want to judge the motives of a 25 year old or even a 55 year old. It isn’t for any human to judge. Just baptize the child that wants to be baptized. If there is any question in the child’s mind when they are older, maybe they will decide themselves that they need a do-over. But then comes the question, are do-overs even necessary. It almost sounds like a legalistic question. In any case, you live by grace. No harm will come by baptizing the child. If it solidifies her faith at such a young age, then so be it. Trusting the pastor’s judgement is the last thing I would do. Judgement is not their job. A good pastor will tell that themselves. Blessings to you and your daughter.
I find it ironic that so many would sound like the 12 trying to protect Jesus from the children, when in fact Jesus said we would do well to be more like them. Matthew 19:14 – “Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” So, perhaps we should stop trying to protect Jesus and let the children do what they naturally want to do. If the daughter is astute enough to know it is important, then by all means baptize the child. If the pastor is so convicted against it, let dad baptize the child, or even mom for that matter. I’ll rest now. Blessings all.
I fully agree.
All children develop and mature at varying rates. Many seven year old girls may not have the capacity to understand the plan of salvation, however some seven year olds are quite capable of comprehending and understanding their need for a savior. Everyone is different and should be considered on an individual basis and not just lumped into an age catagory. I have personally known of exceptional cases where some seven year olds have more between the ears than some adults.
I say, if the young lady seems to understand and seems sincere….go ahead with the baptism. And then later in her life she may realize on her own that she possibly did not fully understand and request as a teen or older adult to be baptized again, as I have known some to do; which is o.k. and no one benefits any less if this happens.
Was there pressure put on her? I have read about men who were wanting to be deacons/elders and needed baptized children, regardless of their ages, in order to become one. So the pressure was put on the kid to get baptized just so the father could be made deacon/elder.
First of all…..any church that would require a man seeking deacon or elder responsibilities in the church to be the parent of a baptized seven year old is rediculous, not to mention unscriptural.
To all of you who have responded with additional thoughts and considerations for the situation I posed regarding our 7 year old daughter, I would like to thank each and every one of you for taking such time.
Secondly, I need you all to know that I have been one year patient on many, many things that have went on in this congregation. I have analyzed every possible variable, thus, did not respond to some certain responses regarding pressure, age, etc….I need you all to know that outside of this particular situation, I empathize for a living. Meaning, I am a licensed, mental health clinician. Likewise, I have been involved in church since the age of 5 and now, being nearly mid-40’s consider this to some degree, “experience.” I also need those followers to know, in order to ensure you that posing my worries here is not knee-jerk………….I am also two classes away from a doctoral degree in ministry and working on a Phd in business psychology. And please hear me, this is not to say at all that I am “above” anything….just that I have analyzed this considerably.
But, for those following………I tried again to seek answers from the pastor, and unfortunately, was told he needed to pray about it. Do not get me wrong……….I agree, pray. But I do not understand the need to pray to God about truth, especially when a pastor should already know this. I just wanted clarification……some answers. And, for the life of me, here I sit, a week later………no response. Does a pastor really need to pray for answering someone truthfully? Should he not know by now? I mean, how many of us pray to God that we just answer with the truth?
I guess what I read in scripture was that Jesus hung out with the sinners. He was not interested in making every board meeting or being in the ministerial alliance schedule to such extent that he made a 7 year old wait 3 months to talk to her about salvation and baptism. Jesus did not send out congregational wide emails about his Super Bowl party, now being a month back, and opted to put a child on the backburner of his “fellowship” agenda. No, Jesus told the disciples to quit stifling the children and do not be a stumbling block, because in order to enter his kingdom, you might want to pay attention to the hearts of these little ones.
And, maybe this pastor and some of you believe that since she is so young, there is time and it is of no urgency……..but believe me when I say…….I am watching a zeal for Christ in a young child become tainted by this world. I have witnessed to her several times. I have asked the questions, listened to her responses, and witnessed her love………..who would not know her better than I, other than our Lord? Two years ago, her sister came forward (different church) and at that time, I knew she was mimicking something that her sister was genuine about…….but now, it is different. This child is coming forward at a time that has no variables and I am involved with a church/pastor that may or may not get to it after his busy week or 3 months of meetings?
There is a quote by Leonard Ravenhill that is: “If pastors preached sermons then as they do today, Jesus Christ would never have been crucified.” I agree.
I will not apologize for saying that the sole purpose of the church-congregation and pastor-is to lead people to Christ through salvation. Jesus said there will always be the poor, thus some type of mission, and yes, we are to love and help and serve as many as possible along the way, but I have yet to read in God’s Word that we need to put off or procrastinate talking to someone who wants/has accepted Christ. Nope, it’s not there.
I sat in this past worship service listening to our pastor speak on “salvation.” I put this in quotes because it is the first time in a year it is even mentioned, and it is seriously tied to the ministerial board curriculum for area congregation with inviting more people to church. Really? I find that interesting given there is a little girl wondering why you don’t have time to talk to her about receiving Christ and why no one will talk to her about Baptism. I wanted to cry, to scream……….but I can’t. I choke back the tears, reread what Paul says, and try again only to learn……….he doesn’t have time and needs to pray for a “truthful” answer.
Father forgive me if I am amiss. Show me what I am to do, learn, discern from this experience….May those reading prayerfully respond and understand my discouragement and trust that I do not arrive at such expression without considerable cause and understanding of knowing this is opposite of your Word.
I am sorry for having spoken earlier and too quickly, and giving you the impression that your daughter should not be baptized due to her youth. I was trying to be optimistic and put a positive spin to things.
As it is, i think this church is harming you and your family and you do seem like a reasonable man. It might be time to leave the church, as the pastor has dealt quite flippantly with your family.
Also, as a responsibility to the Lord and service to the other church members, this is an issue that needs further action other than just quietly leaving the church.
As described in scripture, you need to take one or two Elder leaders of the church and go visit this pastor regarding this matter. Who knows, it may be discovered through further investigation that this pastor has some kind of philosophical bent regarding baptism that does not line up scripturally and could possibly raise the question as to whether he should even be in the ministry. There could be some underlying reason for his hesitancy in this matter that does not jive with scripture.
To just walk away from this church could be allowing a problem to continue to exist that could hinder the ministry of this flock for years. And by doing this you are not out of line at all. The average flock member sitting in the pews on Sunday morning has every right to go to the leadership in the event they notice something taking place within the church that goes against doctrinal teaching of God’s word.
Take the pastor to the account of Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunich. Phillip explained the scripture that the Ethiopian was reading,( which does not even mention baptism by the way), (which is an indicator that Phillip must have went on to explain baptism to the Ethiopian). And while they were still riding along in the chariot the Ethipoian said…..”Look!, here is water, what hinders me to be baptized??
Good thing this pastor was not sent to the Ethiopian……….
First, going to church is not a sense of entitlement. True there are those who have the false belief that if you are a church going Christian, you are better than everyone else who is not a church going Christian. Sorry people, in The Lord’s Eyes, we humans are all the same. And he made us in all sizes shapes and colors.
I have been to numerous churches in my lifetime, and the one I am attending now, I am very happy with. I am not as financially well off as majority of the other church members, and there are times when I cannot attend every Sunday. I do what I can to help out with cleaning, yard clean up and other things, and they appreciate it. In fact, one of the church members called me to see if I was okay because I haven’t been seen or heard from for some time. Everyone gets along, and all are welcome. Going to church is a place to worship, reflect, become educated and learn to be humble and appreciative. Not a place of entitlement, or placed on a pedistal. But a community where everyone is equal along with those who for whatever circumstance are un-able to attend.
And sometimes the pastor is an incredibly boring speaking and talks down to the congregation like we are idiots.
What about a personal issue with the Pastor’s family that is never addressed even after requesting counsel from the Pastor. I’ve been a member for 8 years, a tithe and offering giver. I was also a dedicated worker and made sure my work was done with no supervision..I have not been to church in about 4 months. Not one person reached out. Why? Because they could care less rather I’m there or not.
I believe it was JESUS who said GO INTO THE WORLD AND CREATE DISCIPLES. Yes we are to get together and support each other but I have looked in GOD’S word and have found absolutely no place that says build a church building/organization and fill it with thousands. The call was to GO OUT and was NOT to fill a building. When we once again put into practice loving GOD, loving others, and creating disciples, we will once again be in God’s will and original plan for HIS Church.
You need to post citations on these research articles and give the methodology of your own before readers should accept your claims regarding the results.
I believe that another reason why people leave churches is because of cliques in the church – especially amongst the some of the staff and pastor(s). For example, if anyone in this group does something noteworthy, it is broadcasted all over the church. If someone not of this group does the same thing, nothing is said. It can also be said if someone is hurting in the church. I am a staff member, and while my husband and I were going through a very rough patch in our marriage several years ago, not one person from leadership followed up with us to see how we were doing. That is a real concern, I believe, for we are instructed to bear one another’s burdens. Not as a matter of entitlement, but as a matter of Christian love and encouragement. I’m not real sure why we have stayed at this church, other than I love ministering here and going through these kinds of situations has taught me a lot in the years I’ve been here. I have much more compassion for “the least of these” as I feel like I have been one for a long time. But we are moving to another area soon, and I have to say that I am excited and hopeful that we can find a church that will be loving and more welcoming.
Sometimes people leave a church because they don’t feel like they are being used the way that God wants to use them. The church in my opinion needs to find out the talents of the people and build ministries instead of saying here are the ministries that we have..Find one that fits you. Sometimes a ministry may be a little unusual, but if it is effective and the person doing it has a God given gift. That gift should not be discouraged, but the church should get behind it so it can flourish! A church should not close the door to different ideas as long as God is in the middle of it! When the church builds outside in then people will be more apt to stay as they are doing their ministry out of love instead of duty. Their ministry will flourish as the church promotes it and encourages even the unusual as long as God’s love is spread! http://www.lightenload.wordpress.com
The problem is not the entitlement mentality it is the church being out of touch with reality. I am so sick of churches not getting it. For God sakes Paul did a better job with limited resources than we do in our churches now. I thought the whole point was going to church to get filled so you could go out and serve others? If they aren’t getting fed why would they come back? And why can’t the church leaders ever take a good look at themselves and see what they are doing wrong? I always see the blame being passed on congregation members and NEVER the almighty leadership. People are hurting depressed, suicidal and going through hell. Yes people need to take responsibility and they don’t need to be whiners but I am really tired of the church being a place where one more thing is expected of us. God loves us bottom line and good fruit and good choices come out of love not telling people that they have an entitlement mentality.
Exactly! Besides, we are “entitled” to encouragement, exhortation, love, etc. as members of the church.
How arrogant to assume you have all the answers for the question of why someone might leave the church. As someone still very much in love with Jesus and still serving Him even after leaving the building of church, I am offended. Of course you blame the members leaving…you are in the “business” of keeping them there for your own leadership reasons. Could be that we are leaving the ‘church’ to find Jesus.
I left my church when I was a junior in high school because I couldn’t trust anyone at the church. the pastor admitted within a year of me being there that for the first 3 years he was there, he wasn’t a believer. the youth director spent a whole week (Sunday morning/night and Wednesday night) on how no one but you and God knew if you were going to heaven, not even he knew if his wife was saved because of that. the NEXT WEEK, MJ died and he went on a rant about how that man was going to hell and how dare those people hold a funural telling his family he was in a better place. I even allowed that because some people are strong in their beliefs on MJ’s innocence/guilt. however, the following week, he also said that Toby Keith was going to hell because he sings about women. sorry all the people you asked had bullshit reasons to leave their church, but I can’t stand by and have youth leaders filling the minds of children with that hypocritical crap.
Of course preachers and churches are also susceptible to an entitlement mentality. “We speak for God, so they should just eat whatever we dish up.” Churches are frighteningly unwilling to reengineer.
I can’t say I disagree with any of this . . . . we left our church of eight years, the church that introduced me to Christ because the lead pastor wasn’t being honest with the congregation on how things were being ran. From the pulpit he would say it was the elders making the decision but when i entered leadership I found that these elders were just rubber stamping what he wanted done. We began to lose respect for this man and thought it best to move on quietly.
Thanks, Jim.
Wow…Really an eye opener nugget of truth
I like this.
I’m working on it.
May God bless and increase your knowledge.
I have just found your website and am experiencing profound relief after reading this post. The last church I pastored had many people with a profound sense of entitlement. When much needed changes began they no longer felt comfortable and over a period of time they left. This leaving wounded the other church members. I called it the “leaving disease”. But the changes took place after much appropriate consultation. Feeling vindicated.
Elizabeth, you say you pastor a church….it’s amazing how
you can read this article and the only thing you come
away with is now you feel vindicated? What you don’t realize is
that most of the people that left probably left for reason you
know nothing about, as you’re convinced you had nothing to do
with it. Of course many people leave churches because they
feel entitled. But not all of them leave for that reason. In my own
case, I was blatantly lied about by someone in leadership, to cover
up his own verbally abusive treatment of me for almost two decades. To explain why he was against me, he made up a story
that others believed just so he would still look good in their eyes.
He publicly falsely accused me more than once. He then proceeded to spy on me and my families personal lives once
I decided to “wipe the dust off my feet” and leave. I have never
been disrespectful of those in church authority. But I’ve also never
been abused a day in my life until I entered a pentecostal (not
UPC, but Assemb. of God) church and then again a Word of Faith Christian church, where the second pastor
was just as abusive and has a reputation for being so. If I could
find a church that really loves God and loves people and the
pastor is a true representative of God (not perfect, no one and
no church is perfect, but at least they could pretend to do what
the bible says…many times they won’t even do that) I would be
thrilled. Those people that have left your church are still God’s
children if they are true Christians. Many have been ignored for
years, or abused, or replaced in the ministries that they know
God put them in, often by the leaders own family members
of favorites in the church. And yet the leaders continue to look
upon the ones leaving as some sort of collateral damage instead
of sheep without a shepherd, as the bible says. Real people with
real hurts. I tried to talk to the pastor about the problems, the
first one said “all is well and I don’t know what you’re talking
about” and the second one, who refused to meet with me in
private to discuss his reason for abuse, said in an email “Touch
not God’s anointed” and I ended up apologizing to him for
having dared ask a valid question.
I am a licensed mental health therapist as well as a Servant of God. I must say that I have enjoyed the blog, but I must disagree with the “servant” attitude. Many people approach church with the willingness to “serve” and not be “entitled”, however there are entities that are not of God that are located in the church to destroy the church. For example, the person whom comes with gifts and talents in one area however because they did not come in the packet that we think they should be in , we condemn them or we isolate them. Another example are those who are provided “privileges” because they are “heavy tithers” or hold prestigious positions in corporate or the community. There are individuals whom have experienced “church hurt” in one form or another which impair their willingness, however “we” as Christians should have a level of discernment. The gentlemen made a valid point regarding the comparison of the church to a company in the sense that it is basic “organizational psychology”. People will not stay where they feel mistreated and unwanted or not valued. I agree that we…….as Christian leaders……are dropping the ball in regarding to acceptance, inclusion, and engagement.
I’m looking at a 2013 post on people leaving churches…ergo this comment. 🙂 The Hebraic model, servant leadership, is what I’ve decided would thwart my fears and hesistancy of being in church. I’ve seen pastors and leaders dominate/judge/control rather than loving – have encountered this especially in some mainline pentecostal churches. …coming from an abusive childhood I get crushed when gentleness and kindness are not in operation. Yes I liked what I heard recently that ‘the gifts of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control – are for men too. ‘ ..guess Jesus knew what He was saying as He is the word. Jesus help us.
So what should you do when your Church asks for volunteers, you volunteer to volunteer, and you are never contacted?
I’d like to suggest these reasons I didn’t read in the number of responses I did read:
1. Church leaders are failing to call the attention to matters of justice, missions and ministry. Many, many people in developing nations have never heard the gospel; are suffering and dying from malnutrition and related causes; or are victims of persecution. When pastors teach and preach about the Lord’s call on the church to take care of them, those in the pews will be nourished by the Holy Spirit.
2. Related to (1), I do not find church leaders doing much discipleship, IMO. It could be happening but I don’t find it. Discipleship is NOT exhortation to serve. It is teaching how to serve. This is a huge subject with me that I just can’t address here.
3. I believe the Lord judges many for not serving. Unfortunately, since pastors, IMO, do not teach about the Lord’s judgment, believers don’t understand the pruning, sanctification, discipline and judgement of the Lord. Ignorant but angry at God, they leave the church.
I love my pastor and our church. Where there is no vision people parish. Our pastor has that!! Bus ministry, homeless ministry, women shelter and good KJV preaching!!! Its about loving others and winning lost souls for Christ. But please remember that there are NO perfect pastors or church members. We all need to die to the flesh daily and help each other and lift each other up when one falls. May the Lord help and keep each one of you is my prayer.
Would any of you happen to have the process your church uses to follow up with members that are disengaging with the church? What do you do with members who have not attended or been involved for months? How do you follow up with them to re-engage them? What is your follow up process before removing people from your role?
Been attending local churches for 80 years. Spent 22 years doing ministry in local congregations and holding conferences and teaching for laymen and ministers alike.
The only thing close to this was when I was on “Board” of Deacons. That group had a “membership fellowship committee.” When someone was crossway with the minister it was the job of that group of three to go confer with that individual or family and tell them either to shape up or ship out.
Some people are glad to see others leave rather than have to build relationships with them. I’ve heard individuals simply put it on the action of the Holy Spirit leading those people elsewhere. That can be a cop-out.
NOT EVEN Close…..People want pastors to do as God has instructed them to do. Practice what they preach. Hold fast to the guidelines set forth to be qualified to begin with and to stay qualified. If a pastor become less than “Above Reproach” step down! If he becomes anything less than what qualifies him for the office STEP DOWN! Do not blame their failures on satan. Satan is no doubt the enemy but he gets credit for far to many things we do to ourselves. It takes a willing sole to commit the sin. Example..Pastor gets into debt and does not pay his bills. It goes into collections and affects the churches bank account. Right away it is satan that is doing this. REALLY? It takes many parts to make the Body of Christ, the Church. Jesus is the authority not anyone else. There is but one Father. Stop protecting BAD pastors, get rid of the “good ole boys club” that pastors use for protection and tend to the Flock the way GOD intended.
Lets look on the other way: People leave a church because they have some experiences with some members that has an entitlement mentality that could affect their servant mentality.
Reasons: Some long time members of a church think that they are the only one’s who can do a right thing to serve God(e.g worship ministry and leading an opening prayer or offering prayer and church ministry).
for me:
Entitlement is Pride,
Servant is Love, and we all knew that the word love comes first to have the Fruit of Spirit.
It is human to want to belong. As Christians we all automatically belong to the body of Christ. If we don’t experience a sense of belonging within a certain church because of cliques or cronyism and we decide to leave to find a more inclusive place we are fulfilling our call to serve and be the Lord’s hands and feet. Leaving a church is not synonymous with leaving the ‘body’.
‘After being in relationship with Wilson for seven years,he broke up with me, I did everything possible to bring him back but all was in vain, I wanted him back so much because of the love I have for him, I begged him with everything, I made promises but he refused. I explained my problem to someone online and she suggested that I should contact a spell caster that could help me cast a spell to bring him back but I am the type that don’t believed in spell, I had no choice than to try it, I meant a spell caster called Dr Zuma zuk and I email him, and he told me there was no problem that everything will be okay before three days, that my ex will return to me before three days, he cast the spell and surprisingly in the second day, it was around 4pm. My ex called me, I was so surprised, I answered the call and all he said was that he was so sorry for everything that happened, that he wanted me to return to him, that he loves me so much. I was so happy and went to him, that was how we started living together happily again. Since then, I have made promise that anybody I know that have a relationship problem, I would be of help to such person by referring him or her to the only real and powerful spell caster who helped me with my own problem and who is different from all the fake ones out there. Anybody could need the help of the spell caster, his email: spiritualherbalisthealers@gmail.com you can email him if you need his assistance in your relationship or anything. CONTACT HIM NOW FOR SOLUTION TO ALL YOUR PROBLEMS’
Even though this is a big problem, I see a more serious problem over the horizon. I see seasoned servants of the church leaving. They have grown tired of the big corporation type environment of many churches. Many feel disenfranchised and tossed out to the curb. They see the abuse of spiritual leadership, immense salaries, and neglecting the gifts of the body.
Originally, at least for 200 plus years, the church met in homes which provided that sense of fellowship, longing, and belonging. There was more of a check and balances regarding home-grown leadership in the body. Plus the major part of that congregation’s giving was for the poor in the church, then widows and orphans and missionaries. However, today, it’s salaries, building maintenance, grounds keeping and the like. One national church survey said that only 2% of a church’s budget goes to the needy in the church.
So we see another element of the church that has been in servant mode for decades and still desires to serve but becomes disconnected with the traditional church as they see the abuses rise and the heartfelt ministry decline.
Having been in full time ministry myself for the last 41 years I’ve see this firsthand.
The Bride, built by Humans either with good intention of Supporting the Groom, which is God, the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary, and finally Jesus or with the Evil Intent of Hoarding Money in the Back Doors Behind the Backs of An Misinformed Congregation whom has given thousands and thousands of American Dollars. An Deceived Congregation, often victims of unfriended and two faced and drug and sexually promiscuously Board Members who claim to have the acceptance of being just that, Board Members. Practicing false intentions. Furthermore, Pastors across America have a great disconnect and ongoing self destruction due to fragmenting, hasting, ignoring, loping, taunting, and wetting down the first chapter of the Bible. And that is Genesis. Down playing the true God and his enormous creation of the Big Bang. Along with Gods evident mathematical, scientific, futuristic and simple technology, and the ongoing and infinite of his unsolved equation for the resolve of his creation, in which humans love to chase, however, will not match Gods main ingredients to his equation and that is ‘Hope, Truth, Faith, and Love. All of this in which Humans can’t imaging to recreate. Pastors of America do not have the stamina, God Given Knowledge, nor the God Given Wisdom of explaining the First Chapter of Genesis. Mainly because, the First Chapter, Genesis is not really and entirely about us Humans. That is no money maker for the Greedy Pastor and his Two Faced Board Members. The show must go on. We Pastors have to make this fast or we are going to loose money. Such Evil has drowned out Genesis. That is why churches fail. Because us Humans are too caught up, immature, insecure, and raping our children of their future, and falsely justifying for destroying the Planet Earth. Earth in which rotates faithfully and scientifically for “All of Gods Creation, Not Just Us Inferior Species, Humans. Swashing Adultery and the Play Time for Children to Play Under Gods Rotating Light, into unforgivable and short time among us influential and evil powers thrown onto the very children we Humans Create. Churches fail because God Is Judging Us. God is already here. Us Ignorant Humans profess blindness to sooth our conscience. The Conscience that God will Condemn. And our Churches will continue to Fail Christianity. Humans don’t understand Christianity. And never will. And the Earth will continue to rotate exactly and support ‘All Of God’s Creation, With Us or Without Us.
As Earth Began, Without Selfish Us.
My comment was so true that Tom Rainer didn’t publish my comment. What a pity on him
Merry Christmas
I really starting asking myself after reading a few of the comments with regards to entitlement if maybe I do need to exam myself as well. Reading further on I also could agree with the fact that the church leadership could also be creating an atmosphere where people are prompted to the back door. The conclusion I came to personally is to be balanced in the sense that I must approach the body of Christ with a servant attitude rather than an entitlement attitude and assess my standing as a part of the body of Christ from that perspective.
Using Gallup’s Q12 as a springboard, I took the back door for and because I was not able to use and/or perform my gift, talents, and/or duties in and around the fellowship and the physical plant.
Dr. Rainer I find your putting things out for us to ponder.
In this post you outline some of the “gripes” people have. As a pastoral counselor I find that “gripes” often have a different difficulty under as a fire causing the pot to boil.
Here’s my question: What is a congregation to do when the pastor is simply wrong in what he does? I’ve both had persons ask me in private counseling and then in my experiences with both individual ministers and congregations where I had my membership.
Here’s what I have met in my 85 years of life. Some ministers have inadequate leadership skills; some have little knowledge of persons; some have poor interpersonal skills; some simply do not understand the depth of human despair; some do not believe Christianity is relationship or church is for relationship but only for people to come hear them lecture; some consider themselves to ultimate expert and either cannot or refuse to listen to people who want to relate to them; some are so totally ignorant of Bible history they simply buy and read the sermons written by others so they don’t have to think. They repeat the heresies of the early centuries of the churches that the Apostles sought to stamp out, then later the various problems addressed by the Church Fathers. Some are so focused on where their next church they have all sorts of short-term projects to build their resume rather than maturing the folk in the pews; others don’t have a clue on how to help Christians be transformed.
wow! I am reading all of these comments but I have not read anyone saying anything about people having a realationship with God for themselves. I go to a small church right now and all I hear is people talking about leaving the chruch because things are not going the way the want them to go. However, these same people have not offered to lend a hand in building the church…I think if we can stop looking at each other and look unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith we will be ok.. we are the chruch and the building is our meeting place. I had to get my eyes off of people including the pastor and get my eyes on Jesus so I could know the well of God for my life..I had to pray about where God wanted to me minister at and once I heard from Him it did not matter what others was doing I now know; as long as I seek God well I will be ok.
I was at a church for 8 years and started to feel alienated because the church was growing and changing which can be a good thing for the younger people. My wife had a hard time with it mostly so without her by my side it was difficult to keep going and keep it together with me. But I did learn a lot of things in this process in that if I’m not 100% on fire for the LORD I will not get far in my walk with GOD and things start to break down and satan comes in and destroys your membership. This is a very advanced church I’m talking about where you cannot hide in the corner and not be involved! they want you to follow your calling from GOD period and if you still want to have a foot in the world then the trouble starts. So I agree a servant attitude is best if you want to follow GOD. As far as a business model yes there is a business side to the church as well and some elements can apply.
My reason for leaving a church:
I am a member of the church, and my daughter and I both worked for the church – she as a teacher’s assistant, and myself in a security role every evening. We were both active in the church, something very easy to do since we were renting a house from the church, and lived two doors from the church. They told us that we would be their last renters, and that “after” we moved out, they would sell the house. Instead, they decided to sell the house out from under us. We pleaded with them not to, citing our involvement, the fact that we were never behind on the rent, and that we had taken care of the place. We also explained to them the hardship that this would cause us, but to no avail. They then coerced me to sign a paper to let realtors show the house while we were still there, and told us that if we didn’t, they would give us a notice to get out in 30 days. In addition to the stress caused by strangers bringing strangers to see out house whether we were there or not, several months later they LIED to us, telling us the house was sold, and that we had to leave. Later, the prospective buyers backed out! But we still had to leave. Throughout the process, those involved at the church were very rude to us, and at one point, one of them told me, in exactly these words, “We just want the money.” (My interpretation: The didn’t care about us; they just wanted the money.)
“WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?” Would He kick anyone out of their home? No; after healing a man sick of the palsy, He told him to GO HOME. (Matt. 9:6) I know of nowhere in the Scriptures where Jesus kicked anyone out of their own home. As it is written, “The love of money is the root of all evil.”
This isn’t some petty issue, like church carpeting being the wrong color, or the service lasting more than hour. This is about a church kicking fellow parishioners out of their own home. For this reason, as soon as it is possible, I plan on terminating my membership. This is an outrage, and should be an embarrassment to the church.
I stumbled upon this article, obviously well after it was written, and I disagree so much with it. If what is said in this article is what the church system in general thinks of it’s followers, then I think we’ve found what’s really wrong with the church. Let’s think about the reason a lot of people start going to church in the first place; the sense of community. They’re looking for love and acceptance and belonging. And to call people “entitled” for wanting some show of caring from the church. I left my church back in January because of mental health issues. It probably would have saved my faith if someone from my church recognized that on January 3rd, I simply disappeared. But no one has. No one blinked an eye. And now I am absolutely convinced that churches don’t really care about their parishoners. You’re job as a pastor and as a church leader is to care about your followers. If someone suddenly drops away from church, isn’t it your responsibility to ensure that person is alright? To show you care for that person? To reach out? Why become a church leader if you don’t care about your followers both in the church and out? These are big problems in the church… the more I tell my story, the more I hear from other people who left their church and no one batted an eye. And these people feel betrayed, when one simple phone call or home visit could have saved their faith. Good job on writing an article that basically proves that the church doesn’t actually care.
For a “non-custodial parent” with “visitation” the emptiness is always but especially when the child is around 14 years old and says; “I’d rather hang out with my friends on the weekends now instead of visiting you.” Please pray for an end to this single parent culture that has developed. Please pray for holy catholic families and when the children leave mom and dad they raise holy catholic families every generation and in this, that each generation of parents will find peace and not emptiness when the children leave home
I, too, stumbled upon this article well after it was originally posted. I tend to agree with the author. When a person’s heart is to serve rather than be served, it should certainly diminish that backdoor/revolving door mentality within the church. Problem is, many times people are “baby” Christians and so they have not developed or matured enough spiritually to develop that servant mentality. I think you have to work on getting them there first, and that takes time, dedication and [unfortunately] going overboard, when you can, to help. It’s sad, but true.
Now, every now and again, you’ll stumble across someone who just really loves the Lord and is not in it for what he/she can get, but unfortunately that is rare, at least in the churches I’ve been to. I wish there were more “Christians” who didn’t just have their hand out for what the church can give them or their stones ready to throw when something doesn’t go their way in the church.
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I didn’t read all of the comments, but I will state my reason for leaving. I was sitting in a “mainstream conservative” denomination one Sunday morning, and God spoke to me and said, “I’m not here”. Meaning, the Spirit of God was not in hearts. Denominational doctrine was there, taught according to the denominational beliefs, but not necessarily according to the teachings of God’s word. Thinking I was in the “wrong” denomination, I tried another “mainstream conservative” denomination. Again, “I’m not here”. I just stayed home after that. I sought several ways and philosophies in trying to gain understanding of God’s word and Jesus Christ. To no avail. Finally one day, I just threw up my hands, “God where are you?” He said, “Here I am”. At that moment, as Paul prays, “The the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation of knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of this glory of His inheritance in the saints.” Eph. 1:17,18. Christ left us a Helper, to guide us, teach us, and to lead us into all truth. By the Holy Spirit, He opens the eyes of our understanding, to the revelation of Christ, and the knowledge of God. Without that, we are the product of man made doctrines. In this country, 249 doctrines, in fact. “Which mountain, Lord?” John 4:20 “But the hour is coming, and now IS, when the TRUE worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God IS Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:23,24. Why are people leaving? For various reasons. But I was “called out, to be brought in” to the spiritual body of Christ. The whole gospel of John is concerning the wonderful gift Christ left us, His Spirit. HE is our teacher, our Lord, our King, our Shepherd, our Bread, our Life. Jesus Christ IS the “Word of God”, John 1, Rev. 19:12,13. We have no understanding of God’s word without the Holy Spirit. This is what is missing from today’s denominational church. I sat there for 32 years, and was just as spiritually ignorant as the day I was “saved”. I sat under many pastors and teachers. It is Christ who opens our blind eyes and deaf ears, speaks to us in our spiritual deadness, and causes us to “so walk in Him”. Many pastors and teachers are lacking this understanding,…as educated as they are. There is no life, without the Spirit of God, there is no power (two-edged sword) without the indwelling Spirit of God. (And I’m not speaking of the mockery that has been made of the Holy Spirit in the last 150 years,….it has nothing to do with that.) The Word of God, can not be written on our hearts, and in our minds, unless Christ is in us, His Spirit, THE Word of God. John 1:14. And all of the “programs” in the world will not bring anyone closer to that reality. You may have wonderful attendance, but what about the understanding, wisdom, and knowledge of God? “Love the Lord your God with ALL of your heart, with ALL of you mind, and ALL our your soul.” The church is not even obeying the first commandment, and you know it. Who will be held accountable? The programs? The committees? The brainstorming Pastors? No, each one of us are accountable to God. Just be sure you are not leading the sheep down the wrong path. A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf. When a plane gets off course a few degrees, it might end up anywhere. “Lord, Lord.” and He’ll say, “I never knew you.” Also meaning, we never knew HIm either. The church does NOT know Jesus Christ. And this IS the problem.
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Hey Preacher, people don’t care how much you know, until the they know how much you care. Our modern Preachers are too busy to rub elbows with many in the congregation. At the foot of the cross, there is no separation by wealth or social standing. So come on down to my level. I would LOVE to get to know you a little better. I have some ideas, I’d like to bend your ear a little, even challenge some of your ways of ways of thinking. I’d like to know what you think.
Maybe that frightens you a little, or what could silly old me offer a deep thinking college graduate as yourself. Your probably right, nothing.
I get charged asking those who keep returning, “What keeps you in church?” Their answer gives me insight on how to make sure fewer and fewer people even find a “back door.”? The “Golden Rule” is priceless! But, you already knew that.
This article was interesting due to the fact that it explains the problem of why a backdoor even exist. I left organized religion several years ago and it changed my life for the better. First, I found that organized religion tends to make simple matters more complicated (e.g. love you neighbor as you love yourself versus you must train your people to have a servant mentality versus an entitlement mentality). Secondly, you can serve others anywhere at anytime (e.g. skipping church to go shopping only to find yourself helping a lost child find their family is a great service). Thirdly, you can fellowship anywhere at anytime with other believers (i.e. the Acts church met at each others homes). Lastly, toxic relationships will create chaos in your life when you can have peace. It states to be at peace if at all possible. We really do have a free will to decide what we want out of life. I was always told that the church is full of people who are sick so that is why so many people have bad experiences. I believe that God gives us a brain as well as a heart. If you are not sick why should you potentially infect yourself with someone else’s germs? The truth is we cannot change others only ourselves.
After reading some of the comments I can see that there is a lot of hurt . I do agree that as church leaders we have to buck up, get more understanding of the word and people and be great communicators and pastors. But as a person who was not always a pastor I can clearly see the author’s points as valid. I think one of the reasons we are still serving and following the Lord today is because when we were saved we always were taught to give, to seek and know the Lord even apart from Sunday ministries. The entitlement issue is a very real thing and it is prevalent more today than before. Many years ago people would get into ministry understanding that they may take a pay cut and a downsizing of their lifestyle. Today people are asking if they would be payed market rate if they served in church. We received from the pulpit teaching that fed our souls only because we cultivated that ground during the week in our own time spent with God and His word. It is shocking how many people who complain about not being fed ever feed themselves. And on the note of feel good sermons, it is those churches that actually attract the backdoor leavers.
Church politics is a reality and you have to struggle with it everywhere but it is not the main reason. We have lost the meaning of what it means to be Christian and that is servanthood. Jesus said “in giving you receive” . We say today “if I receive then I will give or stay” Just like when we prime the pump in a well by pouring a bucket of water into it we need to learn to give in order to receive.
For me the article was an eye opener and quite refreshing as I was expecting to see what the church did wrong to bring about this result. Instead the author spoke of our own hearts. Thanks Thom Rainer.
Great post! In the 4 years Pastoring at our church I have seen the greatest results thru one-on-one mentoring w either a man or a married couple to train them. It takes time but it brings results! And, slowly a church can be transformed.
My sister left the church because it depressed her. Also, there’s no functions for singles in any church. My church is nice (I live on Long Island), but I was upset they had a Valentines thing for married people! My complaint fell on deaf ears.
Let’s face it, single people are lepers of all churches – Catholic or otherwise.
so what do you do when the level of ministry and concern are not met. I’m dealing with a pastor at my church of 30 years, whose attitude is “i don’t do hospitals” – should I stick around anyway and say “oh well, i just happen to go to a church where the pastor won’t visit the sick??” Pastoral care is a main reason people go to church. Anyone can turn on the TV if they want a Preacher. Listen, we have a crisis of church leadership going on in this country which can be seen in ALL denominations. Ministers and Priests seem to be focused on the job and trappings, and have lost the importance of being “called.” Blaming dying churches on the people is like blaming a losing team on the crowd.
My husband has been attending the same church for most of his life- he’s 52. I’ve been attending this church since 2000 and we were the first couple married by the current pastor. So, back in 2013 and 2014, my husband became very ill, and instead of being able to attend every Sunday, we missed 9 months of services. No one called to check up on us, and the pastor who knows us and sees us as we sit in the same place when we are there, apparently never even noticed we were missing. My husband has been a Deacon and I worked in the office for a while- I was let go in January- and only one person let me know they were praying for us…I am the only one working in my household right now, so it was a big deal to lose the job. Meanwhile, my in-laws missed many weeks because my mom-in-law had a broken wrist and didn’t feel able to do much. No one asked about them either- and they have been attending that church for as long as my husband. People rarely say hello to us anymore and I feel like we are un-welcome and intruding. Many years ago this church was much more welcoming. I can’t figure out what we are doing wrong- we smile at people, say hello, take showers, etc.
I disagree with the assumption of this post that if someone leaves a church, it is their own fault. My husband and I are struggling to keep up my older home because we don’t have the funds, yet our church spent over $100,000 on a “worship enhancement”, which included all kinds of fancy electronic stuff. My old floors are in bad shape, yet this church, whose old carpeting was fine, just installed all new carpeting. Yet, they are always asking me and my family for money. The pastor and his wife are living very nicely, more so than most of the congregation. You would be amazed at all of the perks and benefits that pastors and their families have, that regular church goers don’t have – not just from the church, but from local businessses. My son has a friend who is a Pastor’s son, and he tells me about all this stuff. And, we don’t go to a megachurch, just a regular church. Not only that, most of the people there are wolves in sheeps clothing. There are so many cliques, infighting, and political wrangling. The pastor and his wife are showered with love and attention, yet many regular members of the congregation are ignored. There are like 2 or 3 people there who are in charge of the various programs, and they take pleasure in excluding other people from volunteering and helping, by refusing to return phone calls when I’ve called to offer to help volunteer. One lady even told me up front to my face not to even bother to call her, because she would not call me back. Some of my friends from the church had the very same thing happen to them as well. I went to the pastor for help with a personal problem, and he said he couldn’t help me and dismissed me. He didn’t offer to pray for me, or even share a verse of scripture with me. I was treated like a leper. I feel that many religious institutions these days are just businesses and social clubs. I still follow Jesus, pray every day, and read and study the bible every day, and serve the Lord every day in many various ways. Jesus is my best friend, and I will not let any religious spirits take that away from me. I have high functioning autism, and I suspect this is why a lot of people at church don’t like me. But Jesus made me that way for a reason, and that is OK with me.
I understand your feelings … My husband has Parkinson’s and Dementia and because he doesn’t talk or act like the other men … he gets ignored … whatever happened to offering “a cup of cold water in my name” … all my guy wants is for someone to accept him and include him … some one to sit and talk to him about “the good ole days” … he loves to reminisce but people won’t take the time … I have him with me 24/7 … and I could use a break … it is good that we are spreading the gospel to all the world with mission trips … but what about those with disabling disorders and their caregivers? We walk a very lonely road.
So sorry to hear that, not the first time I’ve heard it and it is very hurtful. Some people are able to contribute to a church others are not in a position to do so, they are not any the less important, God loves them equally. A lady in a big church which I attended a couple of times said to me, I get ignored because I don’t have a husband. I know exactly what she means as a single lady myself, I’m not in the ‘in crowd’ those that have a big voice and talk over other people.
Obviously Mr. Rainer has not actually spoken to people who have left. We left the institutional church almost three years ago, and it was definitely not because we felt entitled. The main reason was because the modern institutional church is not biblical in structure. We hear lip service about how the “people are the church,” but that is not really put into practice. No scripture saying to build a building, pay a staff, have a youth or music minister, or even a paid “pastor,” and yet these things are the sacred cow of the church. Until Mr. Rainer understands what “church” really means (as in the body), he will never really know the answer to why people are leaving. Remember, the bible tells us more than once that God does not live in a house built by the hands of man. We left the building to keep the faith.
The pastor’s wife of my church is a self proclaim hoarder. The church is a big mess building. Rooms, classes and offices piled with stuff because she doesn’t want to get rid of them. The kitchen pantry also full of stuff and mice feces everywhere. My husband and I used to clean the church for about 5 month and just recently quit the job because we could not stand to see this mess. We were witnessing how one Sunday School class was slowly pilling up with junk. It’s so sickening, I don’t know how much longer we could stay. The pastor is a great shepherd and teacher,he is absolutely wonderful man. We love him and we love the people. But those mess really make me sick!
My parents left a church recently because the Pastor had this great idea to follow something that was not Biblical. There must be other people who leave because of that reason too. I believe that there are many strong fundamental Christian people leaving churches because they think they need to introduce ‘new things’ to get more bums on seats. They aren’t concentrating on the Bible based teaching getting people to know Jesus and building on that foundation.
I have just read this and feel compelled to respond although I have not read through the myriad of comments. I have been at my current church 21 years. I have prayed for that church and served in that church. I came there a young mother expecting her fifth child while my husband and I had endured one crisis after another. We were totally parentless by 24 and 28. I have no siblings. He had two, but one died two years ago before the age of 49. My husband was injured on the job back in the early 90’s and was subsequently out of work over three years. By the time we started at this church we had no one and nothing. We had been raising the current kids with no assistance. We wound up having a few more. Very few cared. No one offered assistance when babies were born, apart from a couple of meals. (The church is over 300 people.) Even though people knew we have no family, we were not invited over for holidays. When we had no food or money, no one was there. When I had a couple of injuries, no offers of help. When my son broke his leg, when my daughter had surgery…. nothing. And just now, my son was SHOT on Christmas Eve 2017, a boy who spent a decade in that church before moving into adulthood… and yet again… silence. We had some response from two pastors we texted, but not ONE SINGLE PHONE CALL from anyone at church. Not one offer for a meal when I all I could do for days was tremble and shake and be close to a break down. There were a couple of fb messages, but mostly, silence. We already have nobody, and the treatment we receive at the hands of the church emphasizes that. I leave church crying more often than anything. I am not looking to be the center of the church’s universe, but I AM looking to be a PART of their universe. So my desire to leave is because to me one of the fundamental aspects of the church is to be a church family, where we can bring our hurting selves into this divine hospital and receive at a minimum some love, caring, and wise and holy words to keep us charged up to go back into our daily chaos and hell. But when the church hurts those already wounded, I go back into the world more callous and unloving modeling after what we have already experienced. I know there are no perfect churches. I know I am not perfect. But to allow one family who NEEDS a family so badly to continuously go ignored in my opinion is nothing short of emotional abuse. And like so many abused people, it’s hard to up and leave, because I have the mentality, it WILL get better. OR…. if only I do the right things, say the right things, THEN they will notice us. Or I accept the blame articles like this infer and assume it’s all my fault, and I am so selfish and entitled (I am an orphan for goodness sake, losing my mom as a teen!) that I am just too uppity to expect nothing less than everyone doting on me 24/7 and I go back into the fray getting beat up again and again because somehow it is totally my fault. My kids are now hurting people distrusting of churches and Christians. I wish it would only affect that, but they are human and it DOES affect their relationship with Christ as well. Maybe if I had left over a decade ago they wouldn’t be so afraid of people and would view God as the loving, but just, Father He is. Until churches are willing to address their favoritism for certain people, and the fact they allow certain families to be ignored, this will happen over and over. I have never seen more favoritism and partiality anywhere in my life, not even public schools, than I have in a church. It should not be about popularity, but about need, and uplifting the downtrodden.
I am an elderly person. Most Sundays I spend tending to two of my sisters who reside in separate rest homes. The Sundays I can go to church, I do not, because those in charge keep the temperature in the church so cold that I can not concentrate in the service. This is year round, summer and winter. They have been aware of this for years and seem not to care. I don’t expect them to cater to my needs, but at least set the temp half way. Many others feel the same way. I would love to be able to fellowship with fellow Christians on Sundays that I can go, but I can not put myself in a position to get chilled and get sick. I have resigned myself to the fact that this is the way it will be and learn to live with it. My relationship with the Lord is intact. He understands and knows the situation. And my ministry at the present time is serving at the rest homes as long as I am able. Very few to none churches are involved in this much needed ministry.
Why are there laity who leave a church? Probably for the same reasons that so many clergy leave a church.
Look around in your present church. Ten years from now seventy percent of the laity and the leadership will be somewhere else. Some for good reasons. Some for bad reasons. And guess what? Those thirty percent who stay will also stay for good and for bad reasons.
Honestly, Mr. Rainer’s article convinced me of only one thing….I have no interest in letting him or anyone who esteems him have access to me or mine. I got a strong enough whiff for a lifetime.
A followup to the above:
According to Mr. Rainer’s linked-in page, he was a Senior Pastor in four different churches in the ten year period from 1984-1994. That is an average of “serving” for two and a half years at each Church.
To be fair, Mr. Rainer self-reports that he “served” two years at three of these churches, and four at the last. We have no idea whether Mr. Rainer has broken himself of church hopping after 1994, because he was not listing the churches he has been in, but only the work history he wishes to sell himself by. (Think on that.)
Mr. Rainer has provided adequate evidence by his own words, as to what character trait his flocks had exampled to them in his “ministry” to them. And I believe he has self-identified correctly.
It is so appallingly predictable.
Thom this is bologna. People with ideas and suggestions don’t leave the church because they don’t get their way. They leave because pastors like you don’t listen or consider their ideas and this sends the message you don’t care nor respect them. They leave because a pastor who can’t listen and consider is no pastor at all. You send the message you don’t respect anything they have to say. You even judge them as malcontents and people with more passion for their ideas then fior the Gospel. But your judgement us wrong. Sounds like an excuse for you to get your way without any questions from others. The saddest part of your comments is that without the ideas, creativity and leadership of members smarter than you is that your church will never be more than what you can create. A pastors job is not to control the flock but to empower the flock with an environment that lets them make followers of Jesus. Your reasons in this article are just your excuse for your own short comings which appear to be your members don’t think you care about them.
I left pew sitting where no one would join me to pursue the genuine commission we are told to fulfill by Christ in the gospels…
I sat in pews for 37 years doing nothing.
Now I am out on street corners witnessing, casting out devils, healing the sick.
I can’t get any one in any church to join me except for a few rebels that have quit church to come out and actually work in the fields.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv3Ym_lgl2Q&list=PLVCuNwXHjgtbtEIAUyuSWvkZh8A8ovjPd&index=3
Would it be fair enough to say, you don’t happen to serve enough although my full time ministry exposes me to alot people, business, financial sector. I am a leader in my current setting. Will I only qualify if I serve in other areas, the needy, the helpless? Your absence at prayer meetings (Full time job, wife, school going children) has also become some sort of measurement and that makes me very uncomfortable. I have drawn interest since the day i converted into the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I wanted an opportunity where one identifies your spititual gift and have indepth training from leadership whom have dealt with congregation members over the years and has equipped them/help them to bring forth what God has deposited in them.
Some advice will be helpfull?
Thanking you
God Bless
the negative comments on here prove the truth of your article. thanks Thom
My experience is the same. Lord help me to teach with all patience, understanding and to lead believers into maturity.
Wow! Entitlement to expect to be loved when in a bad spot? Missed when gone? Encouraged when depressed? I think the writer is just making excuses to be lazy!
Here’s another viewpoint: this church member always feels like a ‘guest’. One example: I’ve offered to help serve food at functions but told “no, I’ll take care of it, but thanks for coming” as if I were just a visitor. Instead, I encourage long-time church members who feel a sense of ownership and pride in their church to actually INCLUDE new members as a MEMBER at church functions. Instead of “no thanks, but thanks for coming”, try giving them a small token task with inclusive words: “it’s so good to see you, what have you been up to this week, would you mind taking these napkins to the other table?” Giving even a small task would go a long way to making them not feel like they will always be just a visitor in the eyes of those more entrenched long-time members. Some version of this has happened to me multiple times.
The bottom line: what I’ve seen at both churches I’ve belonged to over the past six years (I moved away from one) is that there is so much pride in what has been built, on the part of long-time members, that they don’t know how to share and invite people to actually be a part of the church family, and in so doing, they make them feel like outsiders and merely visitors. One could say that my need for belonging and social time isn’t being met – but I don’t think it comes from a sense of entitlement, as some have commented. And it’s fair to say that I need to keep trying, instead of rolling my eyes and concluding that long-time members have a firm grip on the church and won’t let go of any of their organizational territory. But I also think it’s fair to say that some long-time members need to recognize in themselves that they are fulfilling their own needs at the expense of truly inviting newer members to participate and be part of the church family, not just visitors.
Yes, we should not have a sense of over entitlement. However, in that same passage that you cited, Paul, continuing the body analogy, “And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”” What this means is that, if someone has a ministry that does not violate any explicit and/or clearly implicit teachings in Scripture, then they must be able to do that within reason. However, for example, apologetics is not allowed to do this within reasonable limitations. It is either ignored or outright disdain is against it. Thus, regretfullly, ,intellectuals will leave and go elsewhere.
Source:
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), 1 Co 12:21.
Dear pastor sorry to read your article
Dear pastor sorry to read your article what entitlement ??? By saying this you are simply shrugging off the true role of pastors which in another word Jesus callls shepherd right and you are protecting those selfish pastors who are there only to take tithes. Shepherds job is / ministry is to feed how come you can put this reson that pastor dosent feed / visit/ call nd people leave church . Church is bride of Jesus. If a pastor dosent feed his sheep which are believers / members whom god entrusted to the pastors as Jesus can’t come in physical form to feed us … If a pastor says he is pastor than is required and commanded by Jesus to feed kindly read book of Ezekiel … where he is talking to bring into judgement those pastors/ shepherds who fail not to take care of his sheep / believers/ members of church . Pastors job is not to sit in A/C office whose electricity bills are being by tithes and offerings of church members. Pastors first job is to feed and take care and love and to be there in time if there need and like Jesus left 99 sheeps for one sheep if someone is leaving they need to be brought back with love and affection…. and believers they are hardly bothered about title as only Sunday’s they come to church they are working 5 days for theirs families hard in company’s and when month ends even if there is a need they pay tithes to your church. If you are not willing to feed them pls stay away from their tithes … offerings etc etc pls don’t ask money for building and jet planes pls ask Jesus only without giving a hint of your financial needs to the congregation like George muller and many other heroes of faith . Paul was a tent maker though full time worker … lived a simple life and demonstrated power of god with signs and wonders. Now a days every pastor needs jet plane , huge mansion , Rolex watch etc etc without it they can’t go under the sun to preach the gospel . Pastor pls focus on sheeps. Be there for them go visit them call them help them if they need monetary help …. coz Jesus will hold you accountable for his sheep. Or if this is not possible pls step down let a man after god s own heart do his work …Shepherd the bride of Christ which are we … church it’s we .. not the building … stop spending millions on decorating of building and use that money to feed a church member whose hospital bills are not paid, rent , mortgage, school fees , electricity bill, not paid. They are hungry because no job try to feed them . See if there is widow or father child and mother has no source of income pls help them. Right so feed them . Or don’t touch tithes … and pls don’t blame members of church they are precious souls brought by his blood thanks a lot.
Pastors job is to feed the church look after the sheep and take care of them . Any pastor fail to do this book I Ezekiel says judgement on such pastors visiting sheep , helping them, taking care of them is required .. by god. So when people leave when they r not looked after they do right…. if I don’t care about my child my child will leave me and try to find love in other place. Pastor pls look after your sheep and don’t blame believers.
Great post! But what about the times when a new member comes to the church wants to serve God and all kinds of stumbling blocks are put in between? What happens then?
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So this is going to be a tough topic. For the past 14 years I’ve considered myself a Christian/believer in Jesus. My story is probably unlike any other story you’ve ever heard. But the problem is it’s also exactly like every other story you’ve ever heard. I want to be careful what I say here, because the truth is, there are some Christians out there who are extremely loving unconditionally. But the vast majority are just people who hurt people, don’t accept that they are in fact hurting and harming people.
From the first week I walked into a church this has been true.
The very first week I walked into a church, my only Christian friend told me there was nothing in the Bible that said we have to be friends (which actually isn’t true: Do not forsake your friend or a friend of your family, and do not go to your relative’s house when disaster strikes you– better a neighbor nearby than a relative far away. Proverbs 28:10; “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. – Matthew 5:23). I asked this person if I had done anything wrong, and she said no, I was just being myself. So I have done nothing wrong but must be excluded.
A lot of people quote Romans 12:8 saying as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone, in order to justify ending friendships, for whatever minor or major reason they have, no matter how small or big. but notice the difference in context. In Matthew, Jesus is speaking to believers. In Romans, Paul is talking about non-christian Roman soldiers trying to kill Christians. Very big difference.
So I took a hit, somehow I still kept going. This was the first week, and already experienced the hate, I tried the whole “forgiving without reconciling thing” because apparently that’s the Christlike thing to do.
I’ll be honest…college was probably one of the better times when it came to church and church events. I’m not really sure why. But I did see one thing that made an incredible difference and did give me hope. Our campus crusade on some nights would contain catholics, mormons, presbyterians, pentecostals, all different denominations. The division that so many people raged against was just gone.
But when I went back home, things weren’t so crystal clear. I began trying out other churches. The first church I went to in this period, I was met by a former coworker, who came up to me and said I should leave and find a different church. I asked if I had done anything wrong. Still no answers.
So I did, I found another church. I had been dating a girl and found out she cheated on me, so I yelled at her. And even then I tried blaming myself and apologizing and reconciling. In this case it was even brought to the pastor and apparently she said she would leave if I continued going there, and the pastor said even though he agreed with me, asked me to leave until she left and then I could come back.
So I left and found another church. This church quite frankly seemed fantastic. Everybody was loving caring. They encouraged me to get involved, serve, and I did, and this all went on for years, without a hint of negativity. When it all came crashing down. When in fact the pastor’s own family came to me, called me barely tolerable, and when I tried to work things out was told my feelings are not their “responsibility.” Well actually…let’s think of an example. If someone is driving recklessly, and damages your property, whose responsible? The owner, or the reckless driver? The driver is the one who is LIABLE, right? So when you leave emotional scars on someone, it actually is entirely your responsibility to fix it. I tried reaching out to both pastors to get an explanation for some biblical support for their boundaries belief, genuinely wanting to give them a chance. I was ignored. I asked them this because I discovered articles proving the authors of boundaries encouraged people to get divorced within 5 minutes of talking to one person, and making fun of less fortunate people.
And this was the final straw for me. If you can’t love the emotional person whose only issue is he wants to be loved and accepted, then you sure as heck you can’t love the atheist, the drunk, the drug addict, or anyone else. Because here’s the harsh truth: That person might be transformed, and stop drinking let’s say. But the minute you reject him from your life, guess where he’s right back to? Drinking. If someone’s issue is they want to be loved by the church, and the church can’t love that person, then what are you even doing?
So this is my way of saying I no longer wish to be associated with Christians. I’m still on the fence about whether or not I believe in God/Jesus, but the pain and damage caused to me by the church over the years has been more than enough reason to stop going. Maybe my boundary needs to be the church itself.
And please understand, there are a few of you who have been incredible, please understand that, like anything else, there are exceptions to this, and you probably know who you are and please know that this is not really directed at you. I do love the people who genuinely loved me, but what’s hard is knowing that I love the people who don’t love me, but I can’t put myself in a position knowing you’re actively telling people God loves them while still hating someone who genuinely loved you.
They don’t believe what they preach.
They say one thing behind the pulpit and another away from it.
Minutes after the message about its my job as a pastor they say its not my job to do that! its not right proper or biblical!
So much for help, backup, or support in my times of need.
Their words mean nothing.
Lost track of how many times have I heard from the street preachers where I used to go to church when I could, if you give us your information we will make sure you get a ride!
I listen to preaching online.
Nothing EVER came came of it in any way shape or form.
My old church is “cliquey”. I used to jokingly think we were treated like deity there: our existence was ignored until they wanted something, or wanted us to do something.
If I had an idea or a suggestion, I’d bring it to the men where I was told to mow the grass, pick up trash, change light bulbs, oil hinges, and keep quiet.
The last straw came when I was hit with dizzy spells & nausea and was taken by ambulance to the hospital over Labor Day. I was discharged the next afternoon. While I was in the hospital and after I was home, there were no visits, no phone calls, no cards, no well wishes.
I stopped going to church and shortly afterwards, began hearing through the grapevine about what a disappointment we had become to the church and the membership, but neither the Pastor nor a single member came out to visit and talk to me. Not one.
My wife and I used to call on members and ask to visit. We would put together a meal or some sort of dessert and go over for visit & fellowship. No one reciprocated. But guess who would be called upon for dishes to pass at a fellowship dinner following services, or help prepare the church for a funeral, or assist with teens during youth group activities?
A couple months ago, I got a phone call that the church had voted erasure of my membership for lack of attendance. I told them I was fine with that, as I was already gone.
I can’t help but feel a little bitter towards my old church. They should have a new sign made: “First Baptist Church of ******: where many are cold and few are frozen.”
People have to feel needed, loved, included, and appreciated in a church; not vie for initiation into a “good-ole boy” club after gaining membership.
i am 24 years old now and serves in our church for almost 13 years with a goal of serving the lord with all my heart, and i was also become a servant leader sharing my time talent and treasure for 4 years, and i was also became confused before and tried to attend in many sects in our country… but this what really bothers me…. they are both attacking each other, they both tell words to destroy other sect to make their sect dominant and real to the eyes of many. some collects money with a percentage from your minimum income, and i also saw and meet many hypocrite pastors and priests. and i wonder why they have luxurious life if they called their church as “church of the poor”. some church officials have abused my talents and skills for their self glory and receives a lot of claps from the church members rather than telling them to magnify God to whom i offer all the things i do. and others making issues against their church mates and it was a shocking thing that for all i thought religion can help and guide me to be a better person. if then? how? which is better? listen to a bible meeting which a hypocrite pastor is the preacher? or reading and understand the bible on my own at home? attending my church service schedule and be bothered and distracted by the other members whispering at my back talking about negative issues against other members? or lock the door of my room at home and talk to God peacefully? by my experiences i learned and realize that maybe church can’t save my soul…. but its my personal connection to God by means of prayers.
Drixelle:
I share your frustrations. I believe prayer to be one of the greatest privileges granted to us by God. What must it be like for Jesus, Who is even now pleading our case before the Father?
It is Satan (the “accuser”) who exploits our sin nature. Thus, our Lord instructs us to pray, “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” I too am tempted to go it alone, with God at my side of course, but Jesus calls us to relationship with Him and one another. And, whoever claims to abide in Jesus must walk as He walked – amen?
So regardless of the fact that even believers continue to sin, we are to take Jesus’ yoke – learn from His example – be gentle and humble in heart – wash one another’s feet. Even those who irritate us as they walk into the sanctuary late carrying a cup of coffee and talking with the pastor is trying to pray.
Jesus loves you and you are part of His Body, His Bride, the Church! Forgiveness, Mercy, and Grace is part of Who we strive to represent. Because the Holy Spirit lives in you – you can serve others without recognition from people. And, you can worship in a way that instructs others. Lead by example, others are watching!
Some leave because of boredom and feeling that they are attending a variety hour television show every week. Very little substance presented. No discussion of serious cultural issues. No discussion of abortion, socialism, serious decline of church attendance, absense of church attendance in Europe, what Islam has done to Europe and and may do to the U.S. No attempt to reign in projects and constant requests for more money. Use of bible study sessions to discuss things that have been repeated over and over again ad nauseum and at a forth grade level. Too much entertainment by the choir, the soloist or the appointed violinist of the day. The Romans allowed gladiator spectacles in the Coloseum to keep the people under control. Our churches are doing the same thing. Unfortunately, none of any of the above will work. Too much caution among the hired hands and too much political correctness. Gotta watch that bottom line.
Our church was dying. Due to staff and membership. Balance and stability is important. People needed to talk. Pastor took the most faithful people in church and we all had a meeting about things we hated in church and loved- what and who could help facilitate needs- we were open to hear the most difficult things- to hear each other- to keep each other accountable. It was to hear each other’s dreams and visions- fears- and It was a safe place to speak without being judged. It wasn’t for anyone to go on a tangent or in attack mode. It wasn’t about any one person- it was about church as a whole and done with prayer. Our church is in revival mode because of the few who wouldn’t give up and the few who were humbled and repented- the few who stepped down from certain positions to pick up new ones. Its in revival because God is finally alive when it comes to application rather than just word and there is power when things are done in Truth AND Spirit. Not by our might or people’s power- but by Christ alone.
in all honestly nothing of this blog applied to me I’ve been thinking to stop attending church for good, i grew up in the same church as an Apostolic Pentecostal but now as adult the church has changed a lot it’s not what it used to be. i have been putting up with a lot of nonsense from the brotherhood i have been in several churches through the years but everywhere is the same the brother or sister who insists in trying to make you feel that you dont belong or that you don’t fit in I’m a very introverted person, I think God made me this why and it’s very hard for me to fake being like them for acceptance and the hypocrisy trying to make you feel guilty because you probably did something to offend them enough is enough i will never stop believing in God because of them people and the church system change but he will be the only one who loves me and accepts me just the way I’m i gotta stop putting up with all their negativity and drama every Sunday and Wednesdays .. I deserve better from people around me ! and church is not the place to find happiness all are very Phoney !
Here’s the secret truth: people leave churches because of deeper problems that are difficult to articulate, and the offense they cite as the reason is usually a quick/convenient story that sort of crystalizes the underlying system. Instead of an hour-long explanation on why they can’t seem to plug in to a church, they simply recall the most recent disappointment. People don’t walk away from a healthy long-term relationship where they have a lot invested because of one incident. These relationships are so fragile that they can’t survive a setback. That’s the real issue here. When people say “I was out for two weeks and no one called me” this is usually a sign that they noticed it because they expected it, and they expected it because they felt like no one cared. The incident of no one calling them confirmed their sense of isolation.
These surveys would be helpful if they asked more probing questions. “Was there ever a time when you felt secure in this church? Did you have any real friends? Did you feel like you were valued?” I guarantee you, the answers would be “no” for almost everyone who quit.
The reasons given why “people leave a church” are not reasons – they are “excuses” – there is only ever 1 reason a person would leave a Church, the reason is….the person is not in love with Jesus, in other words, not committed. Once a person falls in love with Jesus, Satan will have no power over their choices. Jesus was insulted, mocked, derided etc, yet He still attended Church. Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read. Jesus was always connected with His Father, therefore, He weathered all the storms life threw at Him. A believer who is always about “his Father’s business” will be a rock solid member.
I beg to differ….while I do think the goal should be unity…there are times when it is wise to either leave a church, or to have someone removed from church, depending on the situation. The Bible does talk about having nothing to do with divisive people, about fleeing sexual immorality, about removing those who commit sexual immorality and do not repent; it also discusses to be wary of false teacher. (I want to stress here, that the false teacher accusation should be considered with great discernment; as someone saying something wrong once is not an indicator of a false teacher, but if someone insists on saying Buddha is God or something, then that would certainly be an indicator of a false teacher).
its always the person who leaves the church’s fault, so you say. those reasons that you have mentioned there are common reasons. there are real reasons that people leave the church and sometimes it takes going to the people who left the church and asking them why, instead of blaming them and treating them as villains . as Christians we should be careful not to let the church become a breeding ground for spiritual and emotional abuse. sometimes its not leaders’ fault, its other church members fault who have poisonous, deceitful, jealous spirits and do anything to tarnish other people and destroy their spiritual growth. i was emotionally abused in church by my very friend the one i walked to church with, she was shouting at me all the way to church and blaming me for all sorts of staff i did not do, she said i was disgusting, to the extent that i started questioning God’s love for me, for crying out loud, i am somebody else’s child. and i heard that this girl has been cruel to people that’s why they did not want to play with her, and i was her only friend. i was tolerant at first and i would sleep crying because of her, but i prayed and chose to forgive her. it got to the worst and i decided not to ever go near her again. i gave hints to the leaders, i wanted to talk to them but one of them, cut the phone on me, if the leaders were willing to listen to me and help me with a solution, i was going to stay. but i was like whats the point, im going to church to get bitter, let me avoid church and feel better. it was later that i decided, let me join another church and ever since i stopped playing with that person, i started to believe that God loves me again. at the new church, i serve and im part of a good community, and of course, they are human, they offend me here and there but i forgive them cause its not a habbit. and ive been in that church for years and im glad that ive learnt a lot, the leaders are approachable and kind and are willing to help